Tesla Car Opening Dealership in Chinook

[NuclearFart]

Originally Posted by Matata

Math attack:

Combustion efficiency, EV = (Coal Plant combustion efficiency)*(Line losses)*(engine efficiency)
Combustion efficiency, EV = (95%)*(50%)*(95%) = 45%

I figure 95% efficiency for the coal plant and car engine is close enough for estimates.

Combustion efficiency, typical car = 85% (again, just a reasonable guess)

Factor in that coal burns dirtier than gasoline and the Tesla comes out as a pretty nasty piece of work for emissions. The key difference being that you have several steps between combustion and the application of useful energy, whereas it is a one step process in a combustion engine. There are a ton of factors I haven't considered in my calculations (cost of transporting fuel might shake things up a bit), but I can't envision the Tesla's being a low emission vehicle in Alberta.

I think you are waaay off here. Combustion engines arent even close to halfway efficient. There is alot of energy lost as heat during the combustion itself, completely wasted energy on the piston upstroke, and then you lose alot of energy from the friction of all the moving parts.

Unless you meant the human body which operates around 90-95% efficiency.

[zamler]

Originally Posted by Matata

Combustion efficiency, typical car = 85% (again, just a reasonable guess)

I'm curious where you got this number from? Or why you considered it a reasonable guess, honest question. The absolute best gas burner on the road has a thermal efficiency of 40% (the Prius) which is amazing actually. But it needs a battery pack and electric motors to do it.

Well to wheel efficiency is actually surprisingly complex, depending on the source you will get different numbers but I'd say the general consensus is an electric is at least 70% efficient a petrol car less than 20%. Remember that a fuel burner has zero chance ever becoming green, it will always pollute. An electric has options. From what I've read you can extract enough energy to drive a Tesla about 10,000 miles/year with a moderate solar panel setup, I don't know about cost however but buying a Tesla right now certainly isn't about saving money.

[polak]

Are you guys including power lost through the rest of the powertrain too?

That's another 10-20% depending on the drivetrain.

[zamler]

It's calculated by how much energy it takes to move the vehicle a certain distance. It's pretty easy to see that the 4-5x efficiency of the electric is true, it costs $7-10 to fully charge a Tesla and you can drive 270 miles. In most vehicles that would cost you $50. Not a perfect comparison by any stretch because we are going only on energy cost but it tracks fairly closely.

[Matata]

As it has been brought to my attention that my numbers were lazy garbage (sorry folks, I reeeeeeally didn't want to do any research, but now I've embarrassed myself). Updates:

I said 'Line losses' when I should have said 'Distribution losses', still 50% (line losses range from 5-20%)
20% combustion efficiency for a car is a much better estimate.
70% engine efficiency for an EV car is a much better estimate (I can't get a good handle on this number, but it looks like it's around 50-70%)
33% is a better guess for coal plant efficiency.

Combustion efficiency, EV = (Coal Plant combustion efficiency)*(Distribution losses)*(engine efficiency)
Combustion efficiency, EV = (33%)*(50%)*(70%) = 11.55%

Which is still well below the combustion engine (same 2:1 ratio as my original calcs, my half-assing skills are next level).

Originally Posted by zamler

It's calculated by how much energy it takes to move the vehicle a certain distance. It's pretty easy to see that the 4-5x efficiency of the electric is true, it costs $7-10 to fully charge a Tesla and you can drive 270 miles. In most vehicles that would cost you $50. Not a perfect comparison by any stretch because we are going only on energy cost but it tracks fairly closely.

Earlier, I worked out the cost of fuel being nearly equivalent, but if we are then comparing the car engine at 20% and the Tesla engine at 50-70%, then the Tesla does come out as significantly more cost effective despite being much worse for emissions.

[GGG]

It appears your are ignoring extraction and transportation emissions from your analysis which is significant.

[combustiblefuel]

Owning a I.c.e powered vechile just seems like such a money pit to me now. My Emoto and ebikes only use $ 20 dollars (Emoto) and $5 (Ebikes combined) a month to "Refuel". My hub motors are 80% to 85% efficent and the mid drive motor I use on my emoto is 89 to 92% efficient. It typically costs me 76 cents to recharge a 8.7 kw batterypack for 3 hours.

I'm just in the beginning stages of converting my 1981 300d into an electric retrofit. Hopefully thatwill be done mid summer 2016.

[ernie]

A couple years old.

http://www.greencarreports.com/news/...re-than-an-suv

As more grids add more and more cleaner power the I expect the comparison will get more and more favorable for electric calls.

[Sliver]

Originally Posted by combustiblefuel

Owning a I.c.e powered vechile just seems like such a money pit to me now. My Emoto and ebikes only use $ 20 dollars (Emoto) and $5 (Ebikes combined) a month to "Refuel". My hub motors are 80% to 85% efficent and the mid drive motor I use on my emoto is 89 to 92% efficient. It typically costs me 76 cents to recharge a 8.7 kw batterypack for 3 hours.

I'm just in the beginning stages of converting my 1981 300d into an electric retrofit. Hopefully thatwill be done mid summer 2016.

What are you rockin for an ebike? I've been looking at them and it seems you're spending $2k if you want something decent. Are there any deals to be had anywhere? I'd want a fast one...

[ernie]

Saw several Tesla's when i was in Stockholm for a week in September. Gorgeous cars. Just can't afford them.

[Weitz]

My buddy was telling me that they list the prices of the cars there in USD to make them appear cheaper. Craziness.

[Ozy_Flame]

One thing that really made me mad with the Tesla store in Toronto (Yorkdale Mall) was their "list" price was after the fuel savings you'll have using a Tesla. The actual list price of the car was listed in the small print below. Really GMG.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by Sliver

What are you rockin for an ebike? I've been looking at them and it seems you're spending $2k if you want something decent. Are there any deals to be had anywhere? I'd want a fast one...

2 custom made one off choppers I built and a old school Dyno beach cruiser. 2k is the baseline just for decent electronics. 800 -1000 (50v to 72v) 400 to 600 (36v -48v) for a battery pack 100-250 for controller and 300-800 for a good (not a clone) motor. I will never need to replacethe motor. The controller is unlikely to go bad and typically ( If you know how to properly take care of a battery pack 4-7 years.


If your going to go with a $2000 dollar complete ebike prepare for trouble. Batteries are usually made from cheap b and c grade pouch cells. They either have problems with the bms, multiple cells lagging or cells that puff out. Motors are cheap clones and controllers burning out. Even if they use grade a 18650 cells the ahr rating is not what they tell you it is.

There are many great part companys who made a name for them selves thru endless-sphere.com
These are the only 3 I would ever trust for batteries .
Em3ev.com( hands down THE BEST WORLDWIDE)
Ebikes.ca
Lunacycles.com

Always make sure you check out ebike restrictions tho. Like in Alberta they require a motorcycle helmet. Here in B.C they don't.

[combustiblefuel]

Originally Posted by ernie

Saw several Tesla's when i was in Stockholm for a week in September. Gorgeous cars. Just can't afford them.

There are 4 guys here in Victoria that have them. They are so gorgeous. There the only car I don't mind sitting behind on me Evs because I don't have to smell ####ing burning fumes.

[Northendzone]

i wonder how long it is until tesla moves into the building that the lamborghini dealership currently occupies as i am assuming it has likely been a while since they sold anything at the lambo store

[Ozy_Flame]

Originally Posted by Northendzone

i wonder how long it is until tesla moves into the building that the lamborghini dealership currently occupies as i am assuming it has likely been a while since they sold anything at the lambo store

Talked to the owner of that place at the end of September. He had sold 21 since the opening in May. Either he's lying through his teeth or people refuse to believe we're in a recession.

Also remember that his location serves Edmonton and all of Alberta (and likely Saskatchewan) as well.

[polak]

People who can afford a Lambo probably don't give a #### about this recession. The only people who aren't buying them anymore are the ones who probably shouldn't have in the first place.