A Song of Ice and Fire **Spoilers** Now more TV talk!

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

In my opinion, the wall must fall.

I'm almost starting to think that the Walkers will never get past the wall, and Daenerys will never come to Westeros. The Song of Ice and Fire is just a red herring.

Or maybe it just feels that way.

[Looch City]

Can I run into the other thread and say "promise me Ned" or is that a spoiler?

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Grimbl420

okay episode, but I will complain that Jon being saved by another army that he didn't know was coming is a story line that has already been done, and is just bad writing.

https://winteriscoming.net/2016/06/2...isode-on-imdb/



Tell me where you saw a better battle scene that wasn't Saving Private Ryan.

[djsFlames]

So if the whole Jon parentage is dealt with in the finale, hopefully we can just discuss whatever in the show thread cause at that point the plot progression will be anybody's guess.

[GreenLantern]

I am at a loss, how can they talk about Jon being Ned's nephew in the show thread? Has that been revealed in the show yet? Did I miss that as well?

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

I am at a loss, how can they talk about Jon being Ned's nephew in the show thread? Has that been revealed in the show yet? Did I miss that as well?

I'm going to sound like a horrible elitist here but:

If you watch the show while talking to your buddy sitting next to you you probably think Jon is Ned's son.

If you've watched the show intently understanding how stories unfold it is obvious by now that Jon is NOT ned's son.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by GreenLantern

I am at a loss, how can they talk about Jon being Ned's nephew in the show thread? Has that been revealed in the show yet? Did I miss that as well?

I think there has been as much ambiguity and uncertainty in the show to warrant speculation about Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Jon.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Yamer

I think there has been as much ambiguity and uncertainty in the show to warrant speculation about Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Jon.

Except I don't think the show has done anything to point speculation towards Rhaegar and Lyanna.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

Except I don't think the show has done anything to point speculation towards Rhaegar and Lyanna.

The Flashbacks with Bran at the Tower of Joy makes it pretty obvious doesn't it?

Lyanna is screaming and sounds like she's giving birth. Obviously something is going on up there or else why all the suspense?

Ned was always the embodiment of loyalty. There is no way he'd have fathered a #######, and no other reason for him to keep a secret who Jon's mother is.

I think there was also a line where Jon was referred to as looking a lot like Lyanna.

The book definitely gives you more hints than the show, but even just the show should be enough to make it evident.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Yamer

I think there has been as much ambiguity and uncertainty in the show to warrant speculation about Lyanna, Rhaegar, and Jon.

Yup.

We've heard about the Tournament at Harrenhal and how Rhaegar passed over his own wife to give the crown to Lyanna.

We've had the scene with Sansa and Littlefinger talking about Lyanna being kidnapped by Rhaegar and Littlefinger hinting at there being more to the story.

We saw Barristan tell Dany about Rhaegar and paint a very different picture of the man than a guy who would heartlessly kidnap a young maiden from her home.

Then, of course, this season, we saw the battle at the Tower of Joy. Ned is there looking for his sister. We heard the woman's cries from inside the Tower. We also know that the Tower was being guarded by members of the King's guard, who are sworn to protect the King and his family ... but the King and his family are all dead...

We also know that Ned returned from Dorne with Jon and claimed him as his own son even though Ned's own best friend had no idea who the mother might be.



When I watched the first episode of the series, I had no idea it was based on a popular series of books. I had no previous exposure to the story at all and when Jon and Ned had their final meeting and Ned told Jon that he'd tell him about his mother the next time they talked, my first two thoughts were: they'll never see each other again; and Ned is obviously not Jon's real father. Also, Jon is probably going to be the ultimate hero of the whole story.

[Finger Cookin]

The Tower of Joy scene only makes things obvious to book readers along with all of the other clues left throughout the series. The show has barely mentioned Rhaegar and Lyanna at all. And when they have been mentioned , they've been mentioned in the common narrative that Rhaegar chose Lyanna at the Tourney of Harrenhall, and then kidnapped and raped her.

I'd be shocked if anyone who has only watched the show, along with all of the commentary tracks from the home releases, saw the Tower of Joy scene and instantly thought it had anything to do with Jon at all.

[Cecil Terwilliger]

Agreed.

I think to anyone who spends a lot of time reading the GoT thread or other areas on teh internet that are rife with speculation it may seem obvious.

Even anyone who has read summaries like the one above from Getbak would see how obvious it all is when added up. But for the average watcher who has only ever seen the show once through and probably has no memory at all of those hints, let alone with enough detail to piece it together. Most regular tv show watchers can't remember half of the main character's names, let alone piece together a lightly hinted conspiracy.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

The Tower of Joy scene only makes things obvious to book readers along with all of the other clues left throughout the series. The show has barely mentioned Rhaegar and Lyanna at all. And when they have been mentioned , they've been mentioned in the common narrative that Rhaegar chose Lyanna at the Tourney of Harrenhall, and then kidnapped and raped her.

I'd be shocked if anyone who has only watched the show, along with all of the commentary tracks from the home releases, saw the Tower of Joy scene and instantly thought it had anything to do with Jon at all.

I know this is anecdotal, but: my cousin, who has never cracked into the books, made that connection after that scene.

Jon is a Targaryen is a very popular theory among show-only audiences, and it has the same Lyanna + Rhaegar = Jon equation.

[Finger Cookin]

Fair enough. Your cousin is impressive.

[corporatejay]

Haven't read the books and thought that as well. Re-watch the kings road and specifically the scene between Baratheon and Ned.


Robert Baratheon: What do you say, just you and me on the Kingsroad, swords at our sides, a couple of tavern wenches to warm our beds tonight.
Eddard Stark: You should have asked me 20 years ago.
Robert Baratheon: There were wars to fight, women to marry... We never had the chance to be young.
Eddard Stark: I recall a few chances.
Robert Baratheon: There was that one... Oh, what was her name? That common girl of yours? Becca? With the great big tits you could bury your face in.
Eddard Stark: Bessie. She was one of yours.
Robert Baratheon: Bessie! Thank the gods for Bessie and her tits. Yours was... Aleena? No. You told me once. Meryl? Your #######'s mother?
Eddard Stark: Wylla.
Robert Baratheon: That's it. She must have been a rare wench to make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor. You never told me what she looked like.
Eddard Stark: Nor will I.
Robert Baratheon: We were at war. None of us knew if we were gonna go back home again. You're too hard on yourself. You always have been. I swear if I weren't your King, you'd have hit me already.
Eddard Stark: The worst thing about your coronation... I'll never get to hit you again

[Finger Cookin]

Why are you in this thread if you've never read the books?

[Azure]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

The Tower of Joy scene only makes things obvious to book readers along with all of the other clues left throughout the series. The show has barely mentioned Rhaegar and Lyanna at all. And when they have been mentioned , they've been mentioned in the common narrative that Rhaegar chose Lyanna at the Tourney of Harrenhall, and then kidnapped and raped her.

I'd be shocked if anyone who has only watched the show, along with all of the commentary tracks from the home releases, saw the Tower of Joy scene and instantly thought it had anything to do with Jon at all.

Agree. I think the only reason its so obvious is because of the theories all over the internet.

Every website that deals with TV or entertainment has run their own story on who Jon really is. Pretty tough to miss.

[Azure]

Originally Posted by corporatejay

Haven't read the books and thought that as well. Re-watch the kings road and specifically the scene between Baratheon and Ned.


Robert Baratheon: What do you say, just you and me on the Kingsroad, swords at our sides, a couple of tavern wenches to warm our beds tonight.
Eddard Stark: You should have asked me 20 years ago.
Robert Baratheon: There were wars to fight, women to marry... We never had the chance to be young.
Eddard Stark: I recall a few chances.
Robert Baratheon: There was that one... Oh, what was her name? That common girl of yours? Becca? With the great big tits you could bury your face in.
Eddard Stark: Bessie. She was one of yours.
Robert Baratheon: Bessie! Thank the gods for Bessie and her tits. Yours was... Aleena? No. You told me once. Meryl? Your #######'s mother?
Eddard Stark: Wylla.
Robert Baratheon: That's it. She must have been a rare wench to make Lord Eddard Stark forget his honor. You never told me what she looked like.
Eddard Stark: Nor will I.
Robert Baratheon: We were at war. None of us knew if we were gonna go back home again. You're too hard on yourself. You always have been. I swear if I weren't your King, you'd have hit me already.
Eddard Stark: The worst thing about your coronation... I'll never get to hit you again

Is this supposed to make it obvious? I remember that scene well and I never made a connection at all.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

Why are you in this thread if you've never read the books?

Why not? Some of us don't bitch and cry about spoilers and find speculation interesting.

[Alberta_Beef]

Originally Posted by Azure

Is this supposed to make it obvious? I remember that scene well and I never made a connection at all.

I thought it made it obvious that Jon wasn't Ned's. The most loyal character in the show wouldn't cheat on his wife.