[Trade] Oilers trade Smid and Olivier Roy to Flames for Horak and Brossoit

[Goodlad]

Some other comparables around that cap hit:
Hjalmarsson
Beauchemin
Willie Mitchell
Oduya
Girardi
Robidas
Orpik
Seidenberg

I don't know how you forgot to include those guys on your list.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

Some other comparables around that cap hit:
Hjalmarsson
Beauchemin
Willie Mitchell
Oduya
Girardi
Robidas
Orpik
Seidenberg

I don't know how you forgot to include those guys on your list.

Didn't fit his narrative?

[TjRhythmic]

The recent trend of this thread is a reason I'm not a big fan of advanced stats, or whatever they are. People list them as fact, yet people who watch the game only have opinions.

Advanced stats in my opinion should be used more by teams as a teaching tool more then anything... you see what tendencies certain players have, identify strengths and weaknesses, and you develop those weaknesses and find ways to embrace the strengths to better your team... the problem I find is that people have started using them as a base for formulating arguments for why players are or aren't good completely undermining the intangibles that player brings to a team that can't be measured by stats, or numbers.

Smid is valued because of what he brings to a team outside of what his "stats" are, and that is why he makes what he makes, and that is why the Flames wanted him at the time and believed he brought more value to the team then what Horak and Brossoit brought. And the team likes him, the coaching staff likes him... most fans, like him, and he fits well into our top 4. He is a solid 4/5/6 d man. He was never brought here to be an offensive, puck moving, d man. He wasn't brought here to be the key shut down d man either, he was brought here to strengthen the team, and the d corp... And that is what he has done. It's a win trade for Calgary.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by Goodlad

Some other comparables around that cap hit:
Hjalmarsson
Beauchemin
Willie Mitchell
Oduya
Girardi
Robidas
Orpik
Seidenberg

I don't know how you forgot to include those guys on your list.

Obviously there are some guys overpaid, underpaid, signed contracts prior to changes in salary cap, etc.

At the end of the day, I was trying to illustrate that there are instances of other 5-6 guys being paid similarly to what Smid is being paid. That was the question posted, so quite frankly, discussing players that are better than Smid was not the objective. If anyone here actually thinks that Smid is on the same level as a Hjalmmarsson or a Seidenberg they are kidding themselves. Quite frankly, those would be huge examples of why Smid would actually be overpaid, which wasn't even the point I was trying to make.

[the_only_turek_fan]

I think Smid is a top 4 guy. Seriously.

[strombad]

Originally Posted by Patrick Bateman

I listed 19 comparable players that are getting paid similar amounts of money to Smid.

As yes, THE LIST:

1. Bryan Allen - 1st pairing

2. Nick Schultz - 2nd pairing

3. Andrew Ference - 1st pairing

4. Henrik Tallinder - 1st pairing

5. Tim Gleason

7. James Wisniewski - 2nd pairing

8. Trevor Daley - 2nd pairing

9. Kyle Quincey - 2nd pairing

11. Ed Jovanovski - 2nd pairing

12. Anton Volchankov - 2nd pairing

13. Andrej Meszaros

14. Luke Schenn

15. Nicklas Grossman - 2nd pairing

16. Rob Scuderi - 2nd pairing

17. Brad Stuart

18. Sami Salo - 2nd pairing

20. Mike Green - 2nd pairing

I took the liberty of eliminating the guys you tried to shoehorn in based on past contracts or guys who don't play in the NHL. That means out of 17 players listed, 4 are on the 3rd pairing. Of those 4, two were signed to large contracts at a time when they were playing above the level they are currently playing at and were paid for potential (Schenn & Meszaros).

So you have two, Gleason and Stuart. Neither of which are "adequate", "mediocre", or "easily replaceable" in a third line role. Both shine in that role.

I'm not sure what point your list was making? Because it seemed to prove my point that average 3rd pairing guys are not paid at that rate, while above average 3rd pairing guys and average 2nd pairing guys ARE.

Or are you now going to say that approximately 20% of all top four NHL defencemen are, in fact, "mediocre" 3rd pairing guys who would be easily replaced by any AHLer? That's a bold statement.

I'll just chalk another point up for me. Though you did catch me, you did find two average 3rd pairing guys when I thought you'd find none. Shame it was Schenn and Meszaros who were both signed when they were playing above their current skillset, but close enough for you.

As I said, nobody signs mediocre 3rd pairing guys to 3.5 million dollar contracts.

Nobody.

[TKB]

Originally Posted by the_only_turek_fan

I think Smid is a top 4 guy. Seriously.

You just made me laugh, thanks for that!

[nik-]

Originally Posted by TKB

You just made me laugh, thanks for that!

It's the least we could do, your team has been making us laugh all year.

[TKB]

Originally Posted by nik-

It's the least we could do, your team has been making us laugh all year.

Cool.....

[jayswin]

Wow, strombad just destroyed Jason Bateman's incorrect, 50 post argument (seriously, look it up, 50 posts in this thread since joining).

[getbak]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Wow, strombad just destroyed Jason Bateman's incorrect, 50 post argument (seriously, look it up, 50 posts in this thread since joining).

[dammage79]

Bottom line. Smid is a better player for Calgary than he could possibly be for Edmonton. Better fit here and has a better team to play on.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Bottom line. Smid is a better player for Calgary than he could possibly be for Edmonton. Better fit here and has a better team to play on.

And Calgary's defense has improved quite a bit over the last bunch of games as have the goaltending and Smid who is supposedly very respected and liked in the Flames locker room has been good as a stabilizing influence.

I would totally buy him an Oilers jersey so he can toss it on the ice before the game.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by strombad

So you have two, Gleason and Stuart. Neither of which are "adequate", "mediocre", or "easily replaceable" in a third line role. Both shine in that role.

I'm not sure what point your list was making? Because it seemed to prove my point that average 3rd pairing guys are not paid at that rate, while above average 3rd pairing guys and average 2nd pairing guys ARE.

Or are you now going to say that approximately 20% of all top four NHL defencemen are, in fact, "mediocre" 3rd pairing guys who would be easily replaced by any AHLer? That's a bold statement.

I'll just chalk another point up for me. Though you did catch me, you did find two average 3rd pairing guys when I thought you'd find none. Shame it was Schenn and Meszaros who were both signed when they were playing above their current skillset, but close enough for you.

As I said, nobody signs mediocre 3rd pairing guys to 3.5 million dollar contracts.

Nobody.

I think a simple review of your list would make it quite clear your rankings are absurd. For example in what world is Nick Schultz a top 4 calibre defensemen? The guy is a joke. Smid is much better at this point than him. The Oilers would LOVE to get rid of that guy.

I'm not talking about how these guys are utilized (which appears to be what you are doing). I was talking about the calibre of the players, and their contracts based on their performance. None of those guys belong on a top 4 role.

Go to any Sharks or Canes board, and they will tell you how bad Stuart and Gleason are performing. From reading your rankings I seriously have to question whether you have actually watched the bulk of these guys play. What I posted was a collection of terrible defensemen that teams have trouble stomaching giving ice time to.

Yet in your world, they are all top 4 defensemen? Very crazy. Nobody destroyed my argument. If anything the post I have quoted has made it quite clear that there is not a two sided rational conversation to be had here. Seriously... who here wants to cheer for a team with Henrik Tallinder on their first pairing? Ed Jovo in the top 4? Just laughable, laughable stuff. It's a good thing Jovo got injured because he was playing himself out of the league before that. Florida gave him 4 years at 4M per year because they had to fill their roster and had no NHl d-men (basically my argument for why Smid was worth something in the free agent market).

And Kyle Quincey? Seriously. Go read a Detroit board. He's awful. They want him healthy scratched most games. If you were a GM of a team you would have a team in your mind consisting of 6 top 4 d-men, but they would all be overpaid, and awful. You have zero ability to appropriately rank talent. Laughable.

[Patrick Bateman]

Originally Posted by flameswin

Wow, strombad just destroyed Jason Bateman's incorrect, 50 post argument (seriously, look it up, 50 posts in this thread since joining).

If you think that was "destroying", you might be just as clueless. There was not one "fact" even used in that post. Nothing persuasive other than half brained analysis.

Of course I had to do 50 posts, apparently nobody on this board is allowed to provide a critique to a marginal player without starting a riot.