Can the Flames become successful long term without an ELITE #1C ? - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

playmaker · 11-04-2016, 02:09 PM

First of all, this thread is by no means meant to criticize Monahan or to throw in some crazy trade proposals.
In fact, I think all the recent attempts to obtain our franchise centre were meaningful and I like the current group. That being said, while each of them possesses some unique skill and contribute to an overall success in a different way, we still don't have a top tier guy in our system.
This organization failed to provide an elite centre for Iginla for 10+ years and I've been thinking whether we can afford this approach to Gaudreau.

I personally believe that Bennett is a great pick and can possibly squeeze into the tier 2 group but that's it.
Monahan has a killer offensive instinct but his footspeed and lack of intensity will most likely keep him far away from the top tier.
Backlund may be the only late 1st round pick in Flames history that has fulfilled the expectations but he's probably at his peak right now.
As for Jankowski it is obviously too early to tell but in the skating era I wouldn't bet on him as a franchise centre either.

The question is, can the Flames redefine the NHL genre by applying a constant pressure from 3-4 lines rather than relying on a franchise centre and a star winger ?

mods: I'd really like to see results of the YES/NO poll created for the question in the topic - if possible, many thanks.

JiriHrdina · 11-04-2016, 02:14 PM

At this age and stage few saw Anzen Kopitar as an elite centre. Same with Bergeron. Between Sam and Sean I think the Flames are in good shape down the middle.
I think a poor start by Sean is causing people to overstate the weaknesses in his game. IMHO at least

calgaryblood · 11-04-2016, 02:16 PM

I don't see why Bennett can't develop into an elite Center. Sure he has a lot to learn and I wouldn't even mind him at wing for a little bit sort of how Stamkos was developed but he has the potential forsure.

Monahan is the one I wouldn't be too sure about but it's a possibility.

devo22 · 11-04-2016, 02:21 PM

Monahan was a 30 goal/60 point center at 20. He's going through some adversity right now, but his first three years in the NHL suggest that there's elite potential for sure. In fact, he ranks 6th among centermen in goals since the beginning of 2014-15 - only Stamkos, Pavelski, Tavares, Seguin and Crosby have scored more. Pretty elite company if you ask me. Personally I think Bennetts ceiling is even higher, but in any case, the Flames have an outstanding 1-2 punch down the middle for many years. Don't let a bad start to the season fool you.

GoJetsGo · 11-04-2016, 02:26 PM

Wildly premature thread to assume the two young stud centremen we have can't potentially become elite down the road.

Between Sam and Monny that is a fantastic set of young, growing centres that a lot of teams would be envious of.

bigrangy · 11-04-2016, 02:31 PM

No, no team can.

Monahan and Bennett may yet develop into one though.

PepsiFree · 11-04-2016, 02:32 PM

I think we're fine. As Jiri said, Kopitar and Bergeron weren't seen as "elite" until much later, and really, if Toews hadn't been a huge leader during two Cup wins, would anyone call his play "elite"?

Whatever elite means, there's no prototype. I see both Monahan and Bennett as bonafide #1 centre potentials (Monahan, despite his slow start, is there already) and I think that's more than enough.

Having great talent down the middle is more important than the "one guy." Monahan, Bennett, and Backlund make us a pretty lucky team in that regard.

playmaker · 11-04-2016, 02:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by devo22

Monahan was a 30 goal/60 point center at 20. He's going through some adversity right now, but his first three years in the NHL suggest that there's elite potential for sure. In fact, he ranks 6th among centermen in goals since the beginning of 2014-15 - only Stamkos, Pavelski, Tavares, Seguin and Crosby have scored more. Pretty elite company if you ask me. Personally I think Bennetts ceiling is even higher, but in any case, the Flames have an outstanding 1-2 punch down the middle for many years. Don't let a bad start to the season fool you.

Stats-wise you're absolutely right about Monahan. But when you take into consideration his wheels, faceoff ability and a compete level, I just don't see a top tier centre in him. This is the skating era and Monahan's first three steps are just not there.

GreenLantern2814 · 11-04-2016, 02:36 PM

If Monahan had been healthy for the World Cup, he would have been the only centre on team North America who was over 50% in the dot.

He has his issues. His lack of intensity is a concern, his lack of physical play on any level is worrisome, and his next off season should be devoted entirely to power skating. He's big enough. Learn to use that size and protect the puck, young man.

Bennett may well be playing with Gaudreau before we know it. I wonder if some time with Brouwer wouldn't be good to get Monahan going.

To answer the question, no, the team cannot be successful long term without an elite #1C. But the same can be said for any team.

devo22 · 11-04-2016, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by playmaker

Stats-wise you're absolutely right about Monahan. But when you take into consideration his wheels, faceoff ability and a compete level, I just don't see a top tier centre in him. This is the skating era and Monahan's first three steps are just not there.

but the fact that the production is already there is a great sign. He can still improve and develop other aspects, he's only 22 after all. Most current elite centers took a few years to figure it out and develop certain parts of their overall game.

Finger Cookin · 11-04-2016, 02:40 PM

I thought this song and dance would stop once Iginla moved on.

Anyway, yes - this team can succeed in the long term without an elite #1, or true #1, or generational, or whatever the phrase de jour is, centre. Whatever the labels used, this team is as deep down the middle now as they have been in a long, long time. And they're set up to remain deep and talented for years to come.

GoJetsGo · 11-04-2016, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by playmaker

Stats-wise you're absolutely right about Monahan. But when you take into consideration his wheels, faceoff ability and a compete level, I just don't see a top tier centre in him. This is the skating era and Monahan's first three steps are just not there.

Still very premature to be concluding that as he has a lot of room to mature and improve.

Regardless, the tier you're setting by excluding the possibility of elite young prospects like the ones we have from graduating to the level you're talking about means your definition of an elite #1 centre would probably fit 5-10 players all drafted #1 or close to it.

If that's what you mean, getting one of those is next to impossible without tanking and luck.

I think you're wildly underselling the potential of the two young centres we have, and suggesting the team can't succeed without a top 5-10 centre in the NHL is disingenuous and outright false based on the teams that have won the cup in the last ten years.

Monahan For Mayor · 11-04-2016, 02:43 PM

Depth is more important IMO. We have that depth.

handgroen · 11-04-2016, 02:44 PM

bad thread

MarkGio · 11-04-2016, 02:57 PM

You don't have to be elite, no. But you do need a number one centre, and there's less than 30 in the league.

Bennett and Monahan could develop into a #1 centre, but St. Louis were good for many years with a bunch of good #2 centres, as long as its supplemented with talented players in other positions. They never won a cup, and neither did Washington in Ovi's prime.

bigrangy · 11-04-2016, 03:00 PM

Who are the #1 C's in this league? (including players who were a #1C but are now old as well)

Getzlaf, Bergeron, Toews, Seguin, Spezza, Kopitar, Tavares, Giroux, Malkin, Crosby, Thornton, Stamkos, Henrik, Backstrom.

One of Monahan or Bennett (or an acquisition) needs to reach the level of at least one of these guys for the Flames to be a favorite. Typically, if you're to become an elite center in this league, you (and everyone else) knows it by the time you're 23.

Looking at them as a group, only Henrik Sedin, Claude Giroux, and Ryan Getzlaf weren't elite 1st line centres by the end of their draft+4 year.

Most of the other guys were superstars, save for Bergeron and Kopitar, but they had already led their team in scoring (once and twice respectively). Bergeron would not repeat his offensive production again while Kopitar stayed mostly constant since.

If Monahan doesn't raise his production into the 75 point range this season I really don't think he'll ever be able to be considered an elite #1C in this league. His defensive shortcomings won't make up for his (relative) lack of offensive production. There are exceptions obviously, but I don't think he'll be one. He might be able to mirror Getzlaf's development though, that'd probably be the best hope.

Bennett I think can still fall into the Claude Giroux mold. Smaller guy, but plays hard and earns his ice because he wants it more, not just because he's a better athlete. He has elite skill even though he hasn't shown it yet this year, but we all saw glimpses last season.

It is concerning to see that the supposed strengths of this team haven't been developing as expected. The defense was supposed to be super great, but nobody knows how to suppress chances against, and the center depth was supposed to be developing to greater and greater things.

Hopefully it's all just a blip (and I think it is, Monahan and Bennett are great players) and they can keep becoming better and better.

BeltlineFan · 11-04-2016, 03:03 PM

Loaded question

rumy · 11-04-2016, 03:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GoJetsGo

Wildly premature thread to assume the two young stud centremen we have can't potentially become elite down the road.

Between Sam and Monny that is a fantastic set of young, growing centres that a lot of teams would be envious of.

Absolutely agree. We are fine. Monny will turn things around once this injury goes away and Bennett will be a great #2 for years to come.

Mass_nerder · 11-04-2016, 03:08 PM

I think the importance of having an "elite" centre like Crosby, or McMuffin is over-stated.
I view Monahan along the lines of Bergeron, who has never put up gaudy numbers, but has been more than good enough to lead Boston.
The key seems to be having 2nd and 3rd lines that can contribute effectively to the offense, which I think we have (or will have).

CliffFletcher · 11-04-2016, 03:13 PM

To me, an elite #1 centre is an elite two-way player. A guy who drives your offence but who you also wouldn't hesitate to match up against the other team's top line when you're trying to protect a lead. There aren't a whole lot of them in the league. Maybe 10 or so.

Do I think the Flames have one in Monahan or Bennett? Probably not. Guys like Bergeron and Kopitar did show great defensive potential early in their careers (just as Barkov has done). A drive to excel without the puck as much as with it. We haven't seen that from Monahan or Bennett yet, and in the case of Monahan I doubt we will. We still might with Bennett. I hope so.

Can a team be successful without one? Yes. Teams have made it the Cup without one (the Devils, the Rangers), and some teams have had regular season success without one (the Blues). You'll be swimming against the tide, though - just like a team without a stud #1 defenceman.