I think we're all just going to have to understand that this isnt your daddy's Star Trek, its going to have some of the underlying theme but that this is going to be something completely different.
I was watching an IMDB 'No Small Parts' bit with Wil Wheaton and he echoed my sentiments from a few pages back. Losing Bryan Fuller is a body blow to this show, that man is a genius.
But I think we all have to realize that this isnt going to be Kirk saddling up his space-horse and doling out Justice and Sperm across the galaxy.
So the hardcores are likely going to have to hold and their noses and give it a try and see what happens. It might be good.
Its the same thing that happened with the rebooted movies, they're not brilliant, but they were much better than was feared.
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It looks badass. Completely out of character for what we know about Klingons but I don't care. I'm looking forward to this.
I guess my problem with it, isn't that its the new Klingon, but its just generic to today's villain look in sci fi. Armor with a helmet in black and a bit of a samuri look.
What I liked about the original Klingon look was that they weren't helmet wearing baddies, and while they were armored it was almost raw and left the wearer a bit vulnerable, so you know that for a warrior society that he has to be a bad ass to survive until retirement age.
While its pretty, to me its just kind of meh. It almost looks like something out of the power rangers.
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I'm still not convinced they're not some ancient time traveling Klingons, hence the odd look. There's lots of ways it can be explained story-wise that you can see the producers not wanting to come out and immediately spoil. Heck, we don't even know how or why everyone ends up on the Discovery. It's better to hold judgment until you can actually see a final product.
I think they've made a mistake but not having the show take place after Next Gen/Voyager or in the Abrams-verse. They've handcuffed themselves into the expectation that everything should look older than a 50 year old show. I don't want the Klingons to look like they did on the original series. Even the Next Gen Klingon stuff was cheesy as hell sometimes.
They have all these new methods of creating badass costumes and visuals they couldn't before but they look out of place because we're expecting the tech and species to look pre-original series.
It says a lot that I'm looking forward to the Orville more then this series.
I'll let it sell itself to me and watch the first few episodes, but It just seems that there's been successive bad Star Trek moments outweighing the good ones.
Since the end of the TOS Movies
Good
first contact - more meh then good or great Deep Space 9 - great TV series and a reboot in a way that the galaxy and humanity weren't always good. I rank it over Generations because the Dominion War was just so incredibly well done. Some of Next Generation - I wasn't a huge fan of the show in its entirety but they would get things right and when they did it was good
The bad
Star Trek - Generations - not a good movie to kick off TNG movies. Star Trek - Insurrection - awful movie, badly acted, mind numbingly stupid, it doesn't get worse then this Star Trek - Nemesis - scratch what I said above, it did get worse. The movie that almost killed Tom Hardy's career before it started Star Trek - Voyager - awful, it was a complete train wreck of a series that took everything good on Star Trek and then pooped on it. Really turned up the whole techno BS problem solving. The characters were just not that interesting, and it was tough to care whether or not this crew got home Star Trek - Enterprise - Had such incredible potential, and sometimes they really delivered. The mirror universe storyline was really well done, the last season was pretty strong except the final episode was outright embarrassing with a Fat Will Riker as the main character. The first season was really boring as well. Star Trek - Into darkness - Made the biggest mistake of rebooting an iconic villain and it failed, in fact the whole movie was flat and unimaginative
Meh Star Trek - It was interesting to see new actors playing old characters. But the villain didn't really standout, it was a good attempt at doing something incredibly difficult Star Trek Beyond - I thought it was ok, They struggled again with the villain an Star Fleet hero gone banana.
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The thing with me is, even bad Star Trek is still Star Trek. I just have such a love for the franchise and the universe that I'm totally invested in anything they do, and would still watch it over most other things even if it sucks.
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Is it naive to expect the new series to deal with science and exploration? Or are we resigned to Star Trek's re-boot as an action franchise set in space?
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If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
It says a lot that I'm looking forward to the Orville more then this series.
I'll let it sell itself to me and watch the first few episodes, but It just seems that there's been successive bad Star Trek moments outweighing the good ones.
Since the end of the TOS Movies
Good
first contact - more meh then good or great Deep Space 9 - great TV series and a reboot in a way that the galaxy and humanity weren't always good. I rank it over Generations because the Dominion War was just so incredibly well done. Some of Next Generation - I wasn't a huge fan of the show in its entirety but they would get things right and when they did it was good
The bad
Star Trek - Generations - not a good movie to kick off TNG movies. Star Trek - Insurrection - awful movie, badly acted, mind numbingly stupid, it doesn't get worse then this Star Trek - Nemesis - scratch what I said above, it did get worse. The movie that almost killed Tom Hardy's career before it started Star Trek - Voyager - awful, it was a complete train wreck of a series that took everything good on Star Trek and then pooped on it. Really turned up the whole techno BS problem solving. The characters were just not that interesting, and it was tough to care whether or not this crew got home Star Trek - Enterprise - Had such incredible potential, and sometimes they really delivered. The mirror universe storyline was really well done, the last season was pretty strong except the final episode was outright embarrassing with a Fat Will Riker as the main character. The first season was really boring as well. Star Trek - Into darkness - Made the biggest mistake of rebooting an iconic villain and it failed, in fact the whole movie was flat and unimaginative
Meh Star Trek - It was interesting to see new actors playing old characters. But the villain didn't really standout, it was a good attempt at doing something incredibly difficult Star Trek Beyond - I thought it was ok, They struggled again with the villain an Star Fleet hero gone banana.
CaptainCrunch, I'm surprised you're even a Star Trek fan. You seem to think the majority of it is meh or bad.
DS9 is the only thing you've said was actually good. If you rewatch them, the first season is pretty bad and it has one of the worst finales in all Trek.
Much of TOS is pretty mediocre. 1 out of every 2 original cast movies were just bad. It was revolutionary for its time but it does not hold up well at all. The best thing going for TOS is the characters. They're fantastic. Each of the main cast is nearly perfect. But the actual episodes and half the movies aren't good.
I love Star Trek and TNG was were I got into it. I've really enjoyed the new movies and liked all the series (except Voyager, we can agree on that). Even Enterprise was a lot of fun and not nearly as bad as people say it is.
We have a nostalgia for intellectual Trek as it was the differentiator from most sci fi and especially Star Wars. It would be tough to make it work for today's audience and if we want Trek I think we have to resign ourselves to more action in space than Shakespeare on a ship.
Trailer still blurs between the discovery and the other ship. It's a bit confusing.still, Klingons should be formidable in this iteration. Which is awesome.
Apparently CBS basically came out and said that this Star Trek takes place in the Prime Story line, or the Original Story line so this represents a major retcon.
As well, The first officer is the adopted daughter of Sarek and Amanda, in otherwords, she's Spock's step sister.
That he's never once mentioned, nor did Sarek, but they have a really good reason about why she's not in Spock's life. Kind of like you know in lost they weren't in purgatory.
I love Myers, but god no please stop. We saw what happens when you take an iconic character like Khan played by a actor that really made it his own in RM and try to reboot the character. I mean BC is an excellent actor, but he was a horrible Khan, he didn't get the character at all and because of that he was more flat and annoying then anything else.
I loved Khan when he first appeared in Space Seed, I wouldn't have called him evil, he was a product of his upbringing as a genetically engineered superman bought forth to save a world that was in Chaos. He was taught that ruthlessness and a singular goal was the path to leading and saving mankind.
Quote:
Khan Noonien Singh: You are an excellent tactician, Captain. You let your second-in-command attack while you sit and watch for weakness. Captain James T. Kirk: You have a tendency to express ideas in military terms, Mr. Khan.
[pauses] Captain James T. Kirk: This is a social occasion. Khan Noonien Singh: [laughs] It has been said that, uh, "social occasions" are only warfare concealed. Many prefer it more honest, more... open. Captain James T. Kirk: You fled. Why? Were you afraid? Khan Noonien Singh: I've never been afraid. Captain James T. Kirk: But you left at the very time mankind needed courage. Khan Noonien Singh: [angrily] We offered the world *order*! Captain James T. Kirk: We? Khan Noonien Singh: [smiles admiringly, realizing he has revealed more than he would wish] Excellent. Excellent.
He was charming and charismatic, he was everything that you looked for in a leader sans humanity.
I loved this exchange when the crew found out who he was, because at that instant, he became a really complex 3 dimensional character. The failure in the new Khan was he was 2 dimensional and basically just a villain
Quote:
Captain James T. Kirk: [looking at a library picture of Khan on viewscreen] Name: Khan Noonien Singh. Mr. Spock: From 1992 through 1996, absolute ruler of more than a quarter of your world, from Asia through the Middle East. Dr. McCoy: The last of the tyrants to be overthrown. Scott: I must confess, gentlemen. I've always held a sneaking admiration for this one. Captain James T. Kirk: He was the best of the tyrants and the most dangerous. They were supermen in a sense. Stronger, braver, certainly more ambitious, more daring. Mr. Spock: Gentlemen, this romanticism about a ruthless dictator is... Captain James T. Kirk: Mr. Spock, we humans have a streak of barbarism in us. Appalling, but there, nevertheless. Scott: There were no massacres under his rule. Mr. Spock: And as little freedom. Dr. McCoy: No wars until he was attacked. Mr. Spock: Gentlemen...
[Everyone but Spock laugh] Captain James T. Kirk: Mr. Spock, you misunderstand us. We can be against him and admire him all at the same time. Mr. Spock: Illogical. Captain James T. Kirk: Totally.
Of course when they parted, I didn't really read it as mortal enemies that comes later. Instead they unknowingly planted the seed (tadaa) for one of the greatest character changes that I've ever seen
Quote:
[Khan is escorted out by Security] Scott: It's a shame for a good Scotsman to admit it, but I'm not up on Milton Captain James T. Kirk: The statement Lucifer made when he fell into the pit: "It is better to rule in Hell than serve in Heaven." Mr. Spock: It would be interesting, Captain, to return to that world in 100 years and learn what crop had sprung from the seed you planted today. Captain James T. Kirk: Yes, Mr. Spock. It would indeed.
See Kirk planted the seeds that grew the monster that was the future Khan. He was while still charismatic and undoubtedly a good leader who got his people through hell. He was also a Genetic superman who was driven mad by his need for revenge. He became singular, and that's what made him so great.
At the same time you could almost class Kirk as the villain in TWOK. He never even thought of the people that he had exiled, never checked up on them, Kirk just plain didn't care. You even got that more deeply with the relationship with his son when he bitterly told Dr Marcus "I stayed away like you asked me". Kirk for all of his greatness was all too willing to abandon things and walk away.
Brilliantly though Kirk was the White Whale to Khan's Captain Ahab. And while I have previously said that Khan was a leader sans humanity. He was willing to sacrifice his leadership and use his people to kill the white whale that tormented him. Because of that Khan became a prisoner of his rage, and RM played it so incredibly well.
Quote:
Joachim: We're all with you, sir. But, consider this. We are free. We have a ship, and the means to go where we will. We have escaped permanent exile on Ceti Alpha V. You have defeated the plans of Admiral Kirk. You do not need to defeat him again. Khan: [paraphrase from Melville's Moby Dick] He tasks me. He tasks me and I shall have him! I'll chase him 'round the moons of Nibia and 'round the Antares Maelstrom and 'round perdition's flames before I give him up!
Khan was just complex in the OS and TWOK. But he was two different characters
But in both there was a justification to his actions that made him somewhat sympathetic
Quote:
Khan: Captain, Captain, Captain... save your strength. These people have sworn to live and die at my command two hundred years before you were born. Do you mean he never told you the tale? To amuse your Captain, no? Never told you how the Enterprise picked up the Botany Bay, lost in space from the year 1996 with myself and the ship's company in cryogenic freeze? Capt. Terrell: I never even met Admiral Kirk. Khan: 'Admiral?' 'Admiral!' 'Admiral'... Never told you how 'Admiral' Kirk sent seventy of us into exile in this barren sandheap with only the contents of these cargo bays to sustain us? Chekov: You lie! On Ceti Alpha Five there was life! A fair chance... Khan: [shouts] THIS IS CETI ALPHA FIVE! Ceti Alpha Six exploded six months after we were left here. The shock shifted the orbit of this planet and everything was laid waste. 'Admiral' Kirk never bothered to check on our progress. It was only the fact of my genetically-engineered intellect that allowed us to survive. On Earth, two hundred years ago, I was a prince with power over millions... Chekov: Captain Kirk was your host. You repaid his hospitality by trying to steal his ship and murder him!
In the end, Khan considered himself to be they victim of Kirk both times. First because Khan had been bested and exiled by inferiors. And then when Kirk failed in his duties and it cost Khan everything.
Even in the end, RM made Khan this sympathetic monster, you could understand him because everyone at one point in their lives has been consumed even if only for a few minutes by anger, jealousy or a need for revenge.
Quote:
Khan: [quoting from Melville's Moby Dick] To the last, I will grapple with thee... from Hell's heart, I stab at thee! For hate's sake, I spit my last breath at thee!
Instead of this complex and incredibly charismatic character, in Nu-Trek we got BC playing him as a monotone with a plan so predictable that everyone in the audience was like "Quelle Surprise" when the turn happened. I'm never going to say that BC isn't a great actor. But the writing failed him badly, and I don't think he understood the character at all.
With this series, the question is, can they find a writer that can do Khan? Myers would be the guy since he directed TWOK, but can he find the impassioned deep actor that can pull it off without having people saying he sucks compared to Montalban.
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I think you need to step off the edge a bit when it comes to the new shows man. There's no point doing deep, detailed analysis before anything is even seen. Could it suck? Maybe. Could it be great? Same chance.
Remember when the initial teaser trailer came out for Beyond with the Beastie Boys song? And the uproar was "Look at this dumb action movie! This isn't Star Trek! What is that Beastie Boys song doing there!? Paramount/J J Abrams/Justin Lin are the worst!" Then the movie came out and it ended up being the best Star Trek movie in 20 years. And the Beastie Boys song was in the climax of the movie and it was awesome.
So, reserve judgment until the time comes for it to truly be judged.
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