Canadian Military News

[CaptainCrunch]

This is why you don't buy the cheapest option in terms of military equipment. Design wise these boats were actually a great idea. a diesel sub carrying a sensor, weapons and quieting capability that matches a SSN. But when they were purchased by the prior government they didn't do any kind of proper inspection before taking ownership.

It was a sloppy purchase and we've seen the cost.

[Rerun]

Hard to believe that this "deal" for used/surplus subs (with serious design faults), built in 1986-1992, happened in 1998.

The Brits laughed all the way to the bank, once they sold these lemons to Canada.

[IgiTang]

It hurts so bad.

I really wish I could discuss the actual status of our submarine fleet but unfortunately, I can't. Mostly due to my clearance but in large part to the fact its just heartbreaking for sailors and military as a whole. So much money spent while slashibg budgets on important things, just to save face and there is more to come... Just sad...

The Canadianization of the Berlin Class AOR is gonna be ugly too...

[Vulcan]

None of these countries that are supposed to be our friends will do us any favours. It's about time Canada started developing things on our own for our own needs. Maybe we could work with Australia (similar large country with large coastline with a small population) in developing our own research and ship building, etc.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Did they Navy only work on the subs on weekends?

I realize subs are complicated machines and all but it's been almost 20 yrs since we bought them.

I'm sure spaceship construction is faster than these repairs.

[Azure]

I would imagine they never got enough funding to properly maintain them or even fix the obvious problems.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Did they Navy only work on the subs on weekends?

I realize subs are complicated machines and all but it's been almost 20 yrs since we bought them.

I'm sure spaceship construction is faster than these repairs.

Probably more an issue of funding. Still ridiculous though

[GoinAllTheWay]

Aaaaaand the gong show continues. This time due to "Wonky Welds":

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/subm...oria-1.3584592

More bad news for Canada's problem-plagued submarine fleet: two of the boats will be out of commission for most of this year because of shoddy welding.

Some gems from the above article:

which he said have been available for operations an average of one month each year over the last 20 years.

These are unusually bad submarines. These are submarines that were rejected by the British Royal Navy, which tried to sell them to South Africa and Greece, both of which rejected them,

I made the mistake of clicking on related articles and came across this one:

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/britis...itic-1.2976769

Some of the gems in this one:

That means three of the subs are finally able to conduct naval operations. But only one of the subs, HMCS Victoria, can currently fire a torpedo.

Clarke says Canada's submarines can now influence foreign governments with what they are capable of doing. "Whether you're at a time of war, a time of tension, or a time of peace, having that capability and that tool for the government to use as one of its tools of diplomacy is very important."

Yes, I'm sure these subs are very spooky to the rest of the world. Eye roll.

Seriously, can we just use these effin things for target practice and move on?

[CaptainCrunch]

These subs were based around a very ambitious vision of combining a Diesel Electric submarine with the capabilities of a pre flight SSN. In terms of weapons systems, and quieting and sensors they should have been an excellent boat.

Unfortunately for us, the British decided to go all in in terms of a nuclear submarine navy.

The British were smart though, they had problems with these boats from the start in terms of their weapons system, and they basically slapped a used car for sale sign on them, and the government at the time got them at an incredibly cheap price ($750 million for all of them).

The government bragged about the purchase price, but failed in terms of understanding what they were buying. Boats that had been sitting in storage for a long period of time deteriorating. Then the Canadian Navy failed in terms of their quality of inspection, and the British basically mislead us in terms of the quality of the boats and we bought them as is.

So that bargain purchase has probably doubled, and doubled again and we have a real hole in our maritime strategy and no way to fix it.

this is what happens when you price tag shop on military equipment, you end up looking at either refurbishing it to your standards, or retiring it early and buying again.

Canada's Government has been fairly pathetic in terms of strategic purchasing and we can add these to the files with the F-18 replacement, the Fleet rebuild, the armored vehicle refurbishment that needs to be done among other things.

I want to emphasize that this isn't a critism of the Liberals, its a problem shared by the Conservatives as well (even though Chretien's treatment of the military was pathetic). At some point, it would be nice to get competent government in terms of the military, who are now at the point where we are moving rapidly towards across the board rust out due to bad purchasing and insufficient funding for years.

[calumniate]

Maybe these were the same welders hired on for the BC ferries fastcat hack job!

[CaptainCrunch]

I read a book on submarine construction not that long ago, but it was based on the Electric Boat Company which builds modern US submarines, and the welding required is incredibly difficult and their quality control is extremely high as are their inspections of current boats whenever they come back from patrol.

The last thing you want is to have a seam pop when you're at 500 feet.

[undercoverbrother]

#thanksliberals

[CaptainCrunch]

Might as well bump this as Canada's Former Commander of the Navy and new Deputy Chief of the Military blasts the Liberals and the Conservatives over the state of the Navy and the Ship Building Program at his Change of Command with the Defense Minister in Attendance.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/navy...ions-1.3649643

"It's important to keep in mind that the situation we had to manage was completely avoidable," said Norman.
"It should act as a powerful reminder of what happens when we allow ourselves to continually manage risk by putting off tough decisions in the interest of short-term expediency."​

With Defence Minister Harjit Sajjan in the audience, Norman painted a stark picture of how political gamesmanship has hobbled the navy.
"The RCN has gotten noticeably smaller — both in terms of fleet and establishment — on my watch," he told the change of command ceremony, which ushered in his successor, Vice Admiral Ron Lloyd.
"There's about a 20 per cent reduction in the float capacity of the fleet, with acute losses in war-fighting capabilities, in particular in area air defence and sustainment. As well, we've seen alarming reductions in both our establishment and effective strength."
Norman described the absence of supply ships, which refuel and resupply warships at sea, as a gap that needed to be closed. Without them, the Canadian navy cannot assemble fleet task forces and must send frigates to sea individually.

[Lubicon]

Both the Liberals and the Conservatives should be ashamed of how they have handled our national security and defence.

[Zulu29]

The government should just cut bait with the subs at this point. They're in need of constant repair, in short they are brutal. It's time for the politicization of military procurement to end. No single government should be entrusted with it, it's too important to national security to let partisan politics rule. An all party panel with experts should be created immediately to deal with future purchases.

I get that it's nice to have ship building jobs in Vancouver and Halifax but they can't compete with overseas building. We are nearing the point where we will get half the ships planned for the original ship building plan because of delays, upgrades to shipyards and dithering on design.

It's beyond pathetic. It's a slap in the face to those in uniform serving us.

[CaptainCrunch]

Interesting story on JTF2, its a long way from the days of its inception where "They didn't exist".

https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/...al-forces.html

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Zulu29

The government should just cut bait with the subs at this point. They're in need of constant repair, in short they are brutal. It's time for the politicization of military procurement to end. No single government should be entrusted with it, it's too important to national security to let partisan politics rule. An all party panel with experts should be created immediately to deal with future purchases.

I get that it's nice to have ship building jobs in Vancouver and Halifax but they can't compete with overseas building. We are nearing the point where we will get half the ships planned for the original ship building plan because of delays, upgrades to shipyards and dithering on design.

It's beyond pathetic. It's a slap in the face to those in uniform serving us.

First off on the Submarines. I'm a proponent of the Navy having an under sea service. first and foremost they're the best option for intelligence gathering within our coastal waters. They're also one of the few pure offensive platforms that we have in our navy. Our Frigates for example aren't really offensive platforms, they're more designed for escort duty and task force anti-submarine taskings. While they do have some offensive capabilities in terms of the ability to launch Surface to Surface missiles range wise they don't project power and their offensive bubble is tiny.

With a sub, even the rumor of a sub being in the area can cause a change in posture by someone that's hostile.

In terms of how the government procures for the Military, its a complete balls up hash job, and we're standing on the verge another boondoogle like the Helicopter procurement with the next generation fighter procurement.

With the exception of Peter McKay who was actually a good Minister of National Defense Canada has put the National Defense Strategy in the hands of a massive collection of bumblers and career opportunitists since about the late 50's.

It used to be that you would want a former Military Man in that portfolio, but a great or even good soldier doesn't make a good Minister of National Defense as our current one is showing.

At the end of the day, the only guy outside of McKay who had to try to head off rust off and did a good job of improving Canada's heavy Airlift Capability. Replace aging equipment and try to make sure that our troops in Afghanistan were properly kitted out in a short period of time and create a cohesive future procurement strategy was crazy Paul "UFO" Hellyer who had the right idea of consolidating the Forces Supply and Logistics and procurement strategy but took it waaaaay to far in consolidating the entire military. He basically had the idea that a leading seaman working engineering on a ship could be reassigned as a mechanic with a tank battalion for example.

I think that the problem is that the upper tier of the DND is incredibly bloated. We have too many bureaucrats and too many generals and admirals for a military of our size and they can't agree.

What we need is a MND who will fight tooth and nail for funds, and a committee of non partisan non governmental military personal and civilian experts who can dope out the long terms requirements of the military and work to find the best equipment to fill it and then live within the budget.

We have way to many vested government workers on the file right now who are merely punching their ministry tickets.

[Zulu29]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

First off on the Submarines. I'm a proponent of the Navy having an under sea service. first and foremost they're the best option for intelligence gathering within our coastal waters. They're also one of the few pure offensive platforms that we have in our navy. Our Frigates for example aren't really offensive platforms, they're more designed for escort duty and task force anti-submarine taskings. While they do have some offensive capabilities in terms of the ability to launch Surface to Surface missiles range wise they don't project power and their offensive bubble is tiny.

With a sub, even the rumor of a sub being in the area can cause a change in posture by someone that's hostile.

In terms of how the government procures for the Military, its a complete balls up hash job, and we're standing on the verge another boondoogle like the Helicopter procurement with the next generation fighter procurement.

With the exception of Peter McKay who was actually a good Minister of National Defense Canada has put the National Defense Strategy in the hands of a massive collection of bumblers and career opportunitists since about the late 50's.

It used to be that you would want a former Military Man in that portfolio, but a great or even good soldier doesn't make a good Minister of National Defense as our current one is showing.

At the end of the day, the only guy outside of McKay who had to try to head off rust off and did a good job of improving Canada's heavy Airlift Capability. Replace aging equipment and try to make sure that our troops in Afghanistan were properly kitted out in a short period of time and create a cohesive future procurement strategy was crazy Paul "UFO" Hellyer who had the right idea of consolidating the Forces Supply and Logistics and procurement strategy but took it waaaaay to far in consolidating the entire military. He basically had the idea that a leading seaman working engineering on a ship could be reassigned as a mechanic with a tank battalion for example.

I think that the problem is that the upper tier of the DND is incredibly bloated. We have too many bureaucrats and too many generals and admirals for a military of our size and they can't agree.

What we need is a MND who will fight tooth and nail for funds, and a committee of non partisan non governmental military personal and civilian experts who can dope out the long terms requirements of the military and work to find the best equipment to fill it and then live within the budget.

We have way to many vested government workers on the file right now who are merely punching their ministry tickets.

Totally agree the forces need submarine capability, just not these boats. On my phone right now, will write longer post later.

[GoinAllTheWay]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

They're also one of the few pure offensive platforms that we have in our navy.

Sure, when they work. Only 1 can maybe fire a torpedo as it stands right now.

Unless they have more at their disposal than that? Our subs don't have missile silos, do they?

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by GoinAllTheWay

Sure, when they work. Only 1 can maybe fire a torpedo as it stands right now.

Unless they have more at their disposal than that? Our subs don't have missile silos, do they?

Nope, but you can fire a antiship missile through the 533 torpedo tubes. The American's developed this system for the 688 and 688i class.