Gender neutrality and political correctness discussion

[schteve_d]

I am mercifully bringing this out of the Round 1: Flames vs. Canucks thread for obvious reasons but I really would like to see some discussion here about it.

For those not following the Fire on Ice threads, it started with some being upset about posters calling the Sedins "sisters"; an obvious slight to their manliness.

I'm not picking on these two posters as they weren't the only ones to bring it up but just in case you weren't following these threads this should catch you up to where we are so the discussion can begin.

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I know what the reference is to. The point of the reference is to call the Sedins girls, thereby implying they are inferior. That is the purpose of any jab that feminizes the opponent. No different than calling them the sisters. As I said earlier, it'd be nice if there was less of that in hockey and this is a chance to come up with some new, actually funny trash talk.

Originally Posted by schteve_d

Is it? Is it implying that females are inferior, or is it implying that a couple of women out on a hockey rink full of men may not do all that well at the physical side of the game which, for the record, I don't think is an unreasonable assumption. Get off all this political correctness horse&^%$! Goodness.

Originally Posted by Resurrection

Yes it is. It's no different than saying throwing like a girl or hitting like a girl. It's become a negative way to describe men viewed as being lesser than other men.

In today's day and age, are we really supposed to pretend that men and women are not different. That we don't have different physical attributes? I don't want to date a woman that can be compared to a man on an even playing field when it comes to physical prowess! What if someone said I menstruate like a boy? Should that offend me?

I get that it's not a nice thing to say about the Sedins, or that calling a man a girl is not nice, but should it really be an affront to women everywhere? Does it really imply that woman are inferior?

[Hanna Sniper]

Your post offends me

[WhiteTiger]

This again? This is far from the first time it's been brought up. It last made a big splash during the death of the YLYL thread (that I recall). Folks were upset about it's use, but it looks like nothing's changed.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by schteve_d

Does it really imply that woman are inferior?

Do you think it means that women are equal? Or even superior? If not...

Anyway, I usually find that the people who bitch and moan about political correctness are just as annoying as people who are hypersensitive.

[jar_e]

Obligatory smiley.

But seriously, don't we have this conversation every few months?

[Traditional_Ale]

Hayley Wickenheiser > both Sedins.

[cKy]

www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziNaZxvp-Qk

[fredr123]

Seems appropriate: https://theactivestick.wordpress.com.../yo-everybody/

There’s a lot of unintentional ignorance out there, so let’s get something straight.

If you’re a woman, and you call him Cindy Crosby, or you call them the Sedin Sisters, or you think “Two Girls No Cup” is funny, do you know what you’re doing? You are calling someone female to insult them. You are using yourself as an insult. Have a little more respect for yourself.

If you’re a man, and you make Cindy/Sedin Sisters jokes at me to make me laugh, do you know what you are doing? You are using me as an insult. Why would I find that funny? In fact, making a joke like that at me pretty much guarantees I won’t want to have anything more to do with you.

Maybe you don’t mean to be sexist. Maybe you make that joke because everybody makes jokes like that, and have been doing that for a long, long time. Even women laugh at those jokes, and wear those shirts. What’s the big deal? The big deal is that nobody makes a big deal out of it.

So let’s start. When someone makes a joke like that, politely break the joke down for them. In the last day alone I’ve pointed it out to three people and received a favourable response. “You’re right. I’m sorry.” No need to yell, belittle, or make someone feel like they murdered a puppy. Just break it down nicely. If someone doesn’t get it, then yes, they have serious problems, but trying to educate people without attacking them seems to work pretty well on this particular issue.

Oh, and if you are anyone and you own a Two Girls No Cup shirt, burn it. Don’t give it to charity. Burn it. Don’t cut it up and turn it into rags you can clean your car with. Burn it.

Cool?

[pylon]

I understand the need to be sensitive to everyone and everything now, but unfortunately, humour will be completely diluted to the point that jokes will be.

"Why is it bright outside? Because the sun is glowing, yaaaaayyyy!!"

Then some scientist will come in and say, "That's offensive to my education, and frankly to the scientific processes that takes place within the sun. The sun is actually radiating heat due to hydrogen and helium fusion. So I suggest that you quit being insensitive to those of us that actually understand the science, and invested 6 years in University, and quit brushing the sun with 'wide stroke' terms like "glowing". It's highly offensive."

Not every quip at a buddy, or rival fan is rooted in some sort of racial hatred, bigotry or misogyny. Sometimes they are just stupid digs. Low hanging fruit. It is easy to tell the difference when someone is being mean spirited, or just making a stupid jab. I suggest that any comments about the riot be filtered as well. Because personally, I would be more offended and ashamed to be grouped with those guys, than have someone tell me I throw like a girl. Also diving references need to be removed as well. Because you are suggesting that hockey players are superior to professional divers, and they are lowering themselves by committing the act of diving. Therefore insinuating divers are less 'human'.

/hyperbole

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

No one takes "offense to their education". That's total nonsense and you either know it is when you stop to think about it, or you're not particularly bright.

It's obvious, however, that using race, sexual orientation, gender, these innate characteristics that have historical baggage attached to them as pejorative terms isn't okay. If you still do it, you're kind of a dick.

EDIT: By the way, the sentence in the OP that "It's not nice to call a man a girl" demonstrates how completely you've lost the plot here. The fact that you think that's self-evident, that being called a girl is inherently a bad thing, is exactly the problem.

[polak]

Women are worse at most sports than men.

Hockey is one of those sports.

Children are worse at sports than men.

Why should we feel guilty for saying "Sedin Sisters" but not feel bad saying "Gaudreau plays like a child" or something to that effect? You just insulted every child too with that logic.

Or we could just accept the fact that when the goal is to insult another person, you sort of have to accept that you will probably be insulting some other group in some degree unless you're okay with all of your insults basically being "Ha! Sedins are poor NHL players!"

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by polak

Women are worse at most sports than men.

Hockey is one of those sports.

Children are worse at sports than men.

Why should we feel guilty for saying "Sedin Sisters" but not feel bad saying "Gaudreau plays like a child" or something to that effect? You just insulted every child too with that logic.

You honestly believe people are being that nuanced when they say something like that?

It's a ####ty simple thing to say. Let's not pretend anything else when we're trying to justify it. You're putting one group down to build up the other. If you're not imaginative to come up with someone else, that's on you.

It's the same excuse we saw a couple years ago on this site when people wanted to keep calling players fags. "What a bunch of homos those Sedins are! " Not acceptable anymore, move on, be intelligent and think of something else.

[wittynickname]

Originally Posted by polak

Women are worse at most sports than men.

Hockey is one of those sports.

Children are worse at sports than men.

Why should we feel guilty for saying "Sedin Sisters" but not feel bad saying "Gaudreau plays like a child" or something to that effect? You just insulted every child too with that logic.

Because a child on the ice with a bunch of full grown men would get destroyed.

Hayley Wickenheiser on the ice with a bunch of full grown men would likely hold her own just fine.

Feel free to call the Sedin twins children all you'd like. Call Crosby a whiny baby (as babies are inherently whiny and cry a lot).

Stop using the simple act of Being Female as an insult. It's really not all that difficult to come up with non-sexist insults.

[polak]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

You honestly believe people are being that nuanced when they say something like that?

It's a ####ty simple thing to say. Let's not pretend anything else when we're trying to justify it.

What's so ####ty about it?

Girls can't play hockey like guys in the NHL can. Are we dashing some unsubstantiated dream here? There's nothing ####ty about it and some people seriously need to learn how to suck it up. Holy ####.

If we were saying something like "you drive like a girl" then okay, I guess you can be offended because you're just assuming all girls are bad drivers even though that's not true. In this situation however, NO GIRL IS ABLE TO PLAY HOCKEY AT AN NHL LEVEL.

If girls played hockey better than men I assure you, no one in a Flames jersey would be calling the Sedins "girls".

Originally Posted by wittynickname

Because a child on the ice with a bunch of full grown men would get destroyed.

Hayley Wickenheiser on the ice with a bunch of full grown men would likely hold her own just fine.

You realize the womens olympic team trains agaisnt 15 year old boys right?

[simmonjam1]

Sounds like a bunch of people have their panties in a bunch.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by polak

What's so ####ty about it?

People use the term "play like a girl" in exchange for sissy, wussy. It's not used as a nuanced way of saying they play at a lower level. Can you stop pretending that's what people are doing? It's insulting and that's why it's poopy.

We use the "Sedin Sisters" because we're inferring they're sissier then men, they're a bunch of girls. Does Brian McGrattan like a girl? Does Lance Bouma play like a girl compared to Gaudreau?

How desperate are some of you to old onto simple insults that you'd refuse to give them up if a good chunk of our forum is insulted by them?

[Cain]

Its an interesting phenomenon in my mind honestly. I am not going to take a really well thought out view on this but just something I've noticed.

To me, saying something along the lines of "___ like a girl" or even "homosexual slur" is rarely meant in a derogatory way when I hear it (as in, the person saying it likely has nothing against girls or homosexuals in reality) but it is a bad habit and said carelessly.

It also seems to be a mechanism to praise "manliness" which in itself isn't a bad thing. Men should be proud of who and what they are (though obviously every man defines himself differently) but that praise doesn't have to come at the expense of another group. This is the most irritating part to me because I see it come out in all forms of arguments. "x is wayyyyyyyyyyyyyy better because it is NOTHING like y!" (apple vs android or usa vs canada anyone?)

Just my experience. I've made a concerted effort to stop making comments like this myself lately though. I'd rather focus on more hurtful things if I really want to get under someones skin!

[polak]

I'm sorry but in sports, where the idea that men are able to perform better is supported by real tangible evidence, there will always be references like this.

[starseed]

Using those sexist insults are becoming a thing of the past. I think for the good of this board, we should collectively agree to stop it/call it out. The Flames management has done an absolutely fantastic job at leading by example when it comes to being an inclusive organization. I was extremely proud to see Flames President of Hockey Operations, the captain, and the rookie centerman march in Toronto's gay pride parade in support of Right to Play. I think we could all learn from the Flames organization that we need to learn to respect other members of our community and be more mindful of our conduct.

I hate when people just assume Calgary and Flames fans in general are homophobic, sexist rednecks because they see we used to show videos on the jumbotron of male Canucks fans frolicking in a 'feminine' way through a field with Sedin jerseys, and see us continuing to act like juveniles using gender as a way to demean someone. I want to see CalgaryPuck carry the torch that Brian Burke, Mark Giordano, Sean Monahan etc. have been carrying while wearing the Flaming C.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by polak

What's so ####ty about it?

You are insulting people. Period.

So, speaking of sucking it up, maybe you should be the one to suck it up and just own it. You are insulting women and you want to continue to do, so just say it.

You want to insult the Sedins by comparing them to women. That's it. Nobody is buying this "they aren't as good at hockey" rationale. Probably not even you.

Don't try to fake your way out of it or pretend you are doing something else.