[Trade] Flames get Travis Hamonic + 4th for a 1st and 2x2nds

[IrishSpring2013]

Originally Posted by the2bears

No, I believe he's brought up Burke before in this regard. Seems odd to repeat himself complaining about someone repeating themselves.

agreed.. with apologies to strange brew...

[Par]

Stephanie and Travis Hamonic can't wait to move to Calgary.

https://www.nhl.com/flames/video/the...092/c-52338003

[Strange Brew]

Maybe this is old news but heard on radio that a NYI writer reported that Isles had offered Hamonic, 1st rounder and prospect for Duchene. Sakic wanted more, or maybe just gun shy in general.

[heep223]

Isles fans biggest criticism of Hamonic is that he rushes the puck deep into the O zone and he's not very good at it.

He certainly won't feel like he has to do that here with Brodie, Hamilton and Gio around him. He's a perfect fit as the Flames #4.

So excited for the season

[GranteedEV]

What exactly is it that Travis Hamonic brings to the flames?

Is he a good skater? Not really, he has little-to-no escapability with the puck and has atrocious gap control most nights.

Does he have a great stick? Nope. Whether it's tying up opponents by the crease or preventing cross-ice action, Hamonic isn't particularily good.

Does he play the body and negate defensive zone time that way? Nope.

Is he a strong outlet passer? Nope. In fact probably the worst outlet passer on roster. At least, not including Bartkowski who isn't an NHLer.

Is it offensive skill? I hope not, because Stone is miles ahead of him on that side of the red line.

[Beninho]

really poor use of assets, in no way is he worth what this team gave for him. Looks like a #5 Dman most nights.

[Cortez]

Originally Posted by Beninho

really poor use of assets, in no way is he worth what this team gave for him. Looks like a #5 Dman most nights.

This is wrong on so many levels. Do you realize what it takes to play as a top defender in this league? How many prospects would you be confident in playing over Hamonic ? The answer is 0. It’s very easy to say play this or that rookie instead, but finding guys that can capably play minutes is not an easy thing to do.

Could he be playing better then he is? Yes most definitely. Does he look like a # 5 defenceman? No not at all. The assets we spent on him likely don’t turn into anything as close to the serviceable player that he his.

It is always, and I mean always, better to trade draft picks for a guy that you know can actually play in the league, statistically speaking. Draft picks bust way too often

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cortez

This is wrong on so many levels. Do you realize what it takes to play as a top defender in this league?

Since you do, please enlighten us, and let us know which of those provable top defender qualities it is that Hamonic brings to the table.

How many prospects would you be confident in playing over Hamonic ? The answer is 0. It’s very easy to say play this or that rookie instead, but finding guys that can capably play minutes is not an easy thing to do.

Really? How much worse would our second pair be with Kylington instead of Hamonic? We once won a game with an 18 year old Kylington playing with Brodie on our second pair. 20 year old Kylington is a much better player than 18 year old Kylington.

Face it, Hamonic has done nothing that 18 year old Kylington couldn't do, and that's not especially praise of Kylington as I thought he wasn't very good in that game that we won with him on our 2nd pair. The exaggeration about Hamonic is off the charts - shift for shift Hamonic is not a player that any forward is worried about seeing at the other end.

Could he be playing better then he is? Yes most definitely. Does he look like a # 5 defenceman? No not at all.

He looks exactly like a #5 defenseman. A possession black hole, with poor gap control, who doesn't bring much offensively, or defensively, but who has a few games sprinkled in between where he's not a liability and passes are hitting him... we've seen that story before, his name was Kris Russell and we didn't pay a 1st + two 2nds for him. The difference? Russell had elite skating but no size to elude forechecking pressure. Hamonic has size but lacks the skating to escape forechecking pressure. The difference between the two is aesthetic, not functional. Except Russell-Brodie was actually a pairing that, when playing together a fair number of times, due to their combined speed, had an elite goal differential, whereas the more seemingly "balanced" Brodie-Hamonic accomplishes very little most of the time.

[Cortez]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Since you do, please enlighten us, and let us know which of those provable top defender qualities it is that Hamonic brings to the table.



Really? How much worse would our second pair be with Kylington instead of Hamonic? We once won a game with an 18 year old Kylington playing with Brodie on our second pair. 20 year old Kylington is a much better player than 18 year old Kylington.

Face it, Hamonic has done nothing that 18 year old Kylington couldn't do, and that's not especially praise of Kylington as I thought he wasn't very good in that game that we won with him on our 2nd pair.



He looks exactly like a #5 defenseman. A possession black hole, with poor gap control, who doesn't bring much offensively, or defensively, but who has a few games sprinkled in between where he's not a liability and passes are hitting him... we've seen that story before, his name was Kris Russell and we didn't pay a 1st + two 2nds for him.

My point is - how do you know? How do you know that Kylington would be better then what Hamonic is giving us?

Congratulations, the TEAM won 1 game with Kylington on D. How many games have we won with Harmonic? (it's 14)

It's very easy to talk about prospects that could POTENTIALLY be better then hamonic, but I would argue that there is a reason they are playing in the minors instead of a guy that has over 450 games played

[ForeverFlameFan]

26 games in. Holy crap, let the guy adjust. But where should he adjust? On the 3rd pairing with Kulak.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cortez

My point is - how do you know? How do you know that Kylington would be better then what Hamonic is giving us?

And my point is - Hamonic is so remarkably unremarkable that there is no reason to be "afraid" of a prospect in that spot and use it to prop up a player who has been a liability more often than not.

Do I know Kylington would be better - NO.
But I do know the following:

- Hamonic's play is a very low bar to clear
- Smith has saved Hamonic's butt on as many occasions as he would ostensibly save Kylington's butt
- A prospect does not have the acquisition cost we paid for Travis Hamonic

Congratulations, the TEAM won 1 game with Kylington on D. How many games have we won with Harmonic? (it's 14)

And? We've also lost 11 with Hamonic. How many of those 14 games were won because of Hamonic? How many were won despite Hamonic? How many were lost because of Hamonic? How many were lost where Hamonic could not have done anything more?

The whole "fear of the unknown" thing doesn't work when a player isn't making much of a positive or even neutral impact.

It's very easy to talk about prospects that could POTENTIALLY be better then hamonic, but I would argue that there is a reason they are playing in the minors instead of a guy that has over 450 games played

It's very easy to talk about vets that could POTENTIALLY be better than prospects, but I would argue that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy that leads to guys having over 450 games played while other players find themselves playing in the minors undeservedly.

Chicken and Egg.

Again, I ask you: what provable top defender qualities does Hamonic bring to the table? Where have they definitely positively affected our team on the PK? What about 5-on-5 play?

[dammage79]

Didn't like the trade then, dislike it even more now.

Reality is though it happened, Hamonic is a Flame for two more seasons and hopefully whoever runs the pairings gets it through their thick stubborn skulls that Brodie and Hamonic DO NOT WORK. I've never seen Brodie this bad, ever. Maybe in JR when his play relegated him down to the 4th round.

Coaches just don't seem to play to strengths in chemistry. There's a few more weeks to sort this out until it's go time. And man alive if this D corps fails to get rolling, those picks are gonna come back to haunt Flames history.

[Cortez]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

And my point is - Hamonic is so remarkably unremarkable that there is no reason to be "afraid" of a prospect in that spot and use it to prop up a player who has been a liability more often than not.

Do I know Kylington would be better - NO.
But I do know the following:

- Hamonic's play is a very low bar to clear
- Smith has saved Hamonic's butt on as many occasions as he would ostensibly save Kylington's butt
- A prospect does not have the acquisition cost we paid for Travis Hamonic




And? We've also lost 11 with Hamonic. How many of those 14 games were won because of Hamonic? How many were won despite Hamonic? How many were lost because of Hamonic? How many were lost where Hamonic could not have done anything more?

The whole "fear of the unknown" thing doesn't work when a player isn't making much of a positive or even neutral impact.



It's very easy to talk about vets that could POTENTIALLY be better than prospects, but I would argue that this is a self-fulfilling prophecy that leads to guys having over 450 games played while other players find themselves playing in the minors undeservedly.

Chicken and Egg.

Again, I ask you: what provable top defender qualities does Hamonic bring to the table? Where have they definitely positively affected our team on the PK? What about 5-on-5 play?

Vets become Vets for a reason. They don't just mistakenly happen onto 450 games in the NHL. You are talking as if a rookie we have in the minors can come into this league and start playing more minutes the Hamonic. Yes the shiny new toy in the minors is great, but you can't act like you know how he is going to preform when he gets thrust into the show.

[N-E-B]

I really do see what Hamonic brings, the issue is I don't think he works well with Brodie. Split them up already.

[Cortez]

Originally Posted by dammage79

Didn't like the trade then, dislike it even more now.

Reality is though it happened, Hamonic is a Flame for two more seasons and hopefully whoever runs the pairings gets it through their thick stubborn skulls that Brodie and Hamonic DO NOT WORK. I've never seen Brodie this bad, ever. Maybe in JR when his play relegated him down to the 4th round.

Coaches just don't seem to play to strengths in chemistry. There's a few more weeks to sort this out until it's go time. And man alive if this D corps fails to get rolling, those picks are gonna come back to haunt Flames history.

This is a point that can't be overstated. There is still time for Hamonic to figure things out. There is still time to figure out where he should be played in the lineup and with who. The season evolves as the team grows together. We can't write players off, or likewise claim they are the greatest after such a short time

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by Cortez

Vets become Vets for a reason. They don't just mistakenly happen onto 450 games in the NHL. You are talking as if a rookie we have in the minors can come into this league and start playing more minutes the Hamonic. Yes the shiny new toy in the minors is great, but you can't act like you know how he is going to preform when he gets thrust into the show.

You mean like how Jankowski and Kulak didn't come and start playing more minutes than vets like Tanner Glass and Matt Bartkowski? Please. It's just a contrived position to have, and pulling the "shiny new toys" card is par for the course.

I don't "know" how anyone is going to perform when thrust into the show. I can make educated guesses based on skills, tools, observations, and results at lower levels. Which is a far more measured position than blindly declaring "How many prospects would you be confident in playing over Hamonic ? The answer is 0." as if Hamonic inspires confidence of his own, especially in a "top defender role" that you claim to "realize" he possesses "what it takes", which you still haven't described.

Based on all the evidence I've seen, it's pretty clear Travis Hamonic has been playing at the level of a bottom pair defenseman for the last two seasons, maybe more. Even the best year of his career is tied to ridiculously inflated on-ice save percentages by Jaroslav Halak, although his underlying numbers were better on a whole back then. The eye test hasn't disagreed with the historical data, if anything it has re-inforced it.

But if there is something I am simply not seeing in Hamonic's play (outside of non-functional aesthetic traits like being big and throwing some cross checks by his net) then I need to be enlightened about them.

[Enoch Root]

2 posters that don't like Hamonic = ongoing thread discussing how he sucks.

As someone said, 25 games into a new team, new system, and new defensive partner. Chill.

GranteedEV... your desire to draw a conclusion on a player, and then beat the drum like there is no tomorrow, is beyond ridiculous. Defense is an art, and finding partners that work, and settling into a system, takes time.

Let it go. Hamonic is a good defenseman. But I do think he and Brodie need to be split up.

[BruceCody]

Originally Posted by Cortez

My point is - how do you know? How do you know that Kylington would be better then what Hamonic is giving us?

Give a chance to play? Oh wait, there no chance

[Cortez]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

You mean like how Jankowski and Kulak didn't come and start playing more minutes than vets like Tanner Glass and Matt Bartkowski? Please. It's just a contrived position to have, and pulling the "shiny new toys" card is par for the course.

I don't "know" how anyone is going to perform when thrust into the show. I can make educated guesses based on skills, tools, observations, and results at lower levels. Which is a far more measured position than blindly declaring "How many prospects would you be confident in playing over Hamonic ? The answer is 0." as if Hamonic inspires confidence of his own, especially in a "top defender role" that you claim to "realize" he possesses "what it takes", which you still haven't described.

Based on all the evidence I've seen, it's pretty clear Travis Hamonic has been playing at the level of a bottom pair defenseman for the last two seasons, maybe more. Even the best year of his career is tied to ridiculously inflated on-ice save percentages by Jaroslav Halak, although his underlying numbers were better on a whole back then.

And likewise how you haven't described how any one of our rookies could perform better then him .

Do you not remember how bad Dougie was when he first came over to our team? It took him a full season and then the next year he was playing at an elite level.
We are 25 some games into the season for hamilton- it's crazy to start to talking about what a waste of the draft picks were when we haven't even seen a full sample size of what he can do

[dammage79]

Originally Posted by Cortez

This is a point that can't be overstated. There is still time for Hamonic to figure things out. There is still time to figure out where he should be played in the lineup and with who. The season evolves as the team grows together. We can't write players off, or likewise claim they are the greatest after such a short time

If we're doing a direct comparisson, there should have been some net gains by now running Brodie and Hamoinc together for 26 games. Nothing. In fact the longer this has gone on, the more Brodie has regressed. Now thats not to hang it on Hamonic but if your guy who has been the #2 player on your defensive roster for more than 3 seasons now falls of a cliff performance wise, it has long been past the time to right the ship. Nevermind if Hamoinc doesn't get rolling at that price tag, if Brodie doesn't roll, this team is doomed. and what should have been that fabled on paper top 5 will go down far worse than whatever happened when Bouwmeester was brought on board.

Brodie and Stone had from the deadline to the end of the season to get rolling and they did just fine.

Sure theres a few weeks to go to get this sorted, But for Brodies sake and the teams sake, this should have been done a while ago.