Better rebuild situation 2013 or 2024?

[CFO]

In 2 years this team could be young and exciting as long as they don't mess up trades.

Wolf takes over in net.

Quality bottom 6 players who are young.

The D will be revamped.

Flames just need to draft 1 impact player and sign 1 impact player.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by Huntingwhale

2013 was a much better position. Literally everyone knew that the time for the Iggy and Kipper era was closing. Iggy deserved to chase a cup and attempted to do so. We all knew Kipper was going to retire before the last year of his contract. Bouwmeester was playing re-invigorated with a new coach and the team knew he could fetch a return. While Feaster seemed to get some lacklustre returns for Iggy and JayBo, having a three 1st round picks was pretty sweet (even though only 1 panned out). The D was being rebuilt as much more mobile when slower guys left. The team was very clearly entering a rebuild stage and the org had no choice but to embrace it.

Right now is much different. A few long term contracts were signed literally last season and are pretty much immovable. You had Mr Bean saying outloud that the R word is never to be used. I don't doubt Conroy wants to rebuild, but I think he was also chosen as the GM for being the yes-man Murray Edwards wants. I think that the rebuild in 2013 started a few seasons too late but the team got dragged in kicking and screaming. I think the same will happen to this iteration. Maybe not this season if Markstrom keeps playing lights out, but at some point it's all going to come crumbling and there will be no choice.

If Treliving was here I doubt we would be open for business in November. I bet he would have signed Lindholm in the summer and he would be telling us the answers are in the room and this team is better than their record. Some of this is true but Conroy is looking at this team that is probably better than they have played but not good enough. He also is not caving into player contracts. Hanifin at $7.5 mil or Lindholm at $9 mil is something a lot of GM's would have signed and then figured it out next summer. We need to start giving credit to Conroy for not committing to this team and now seeing how bad it is looking, he has the option to sell.

Could you imagine how bad things would be looking if he signed Lindholm or Hanifin or both to big money?

Why people continuously crap on Conroy because he has no experience and is a former flame makes no sense to me. Sakic, Yzerman, Francis are former players that got hired with no experience. Doesn't mean he won't be good. Evaluate him based on his decisions.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by CFO

In 2 years this team could be young and exciting as long as they don't mess up trades.

Wolf takes over in net.

Quality bottom 6 players who are young.

The D will be revamped.

Flames just need to draft 1 impact player and sign 1 impact player.

I think they need to draft 2 impact players. If they sell this year, they likely will be a bottom team next year as well.

[CFO]

Originally Posted by Macho0978

I think they need to draft 2 impact players. If they sell this year, they likely will be a bottom team next year as well.

I'm assuming wolf will be an impact goalie.

Draft an impact player. Wolf as impact. And then sign an impact player. Having 3 true impact players is decent.

[Kipper_3434]

The anchor contracts are fine. Saves us from signing bums like Raymond to overinflated contracts in F.A. just to meet cap floor. I think the current situation is better for a rebuild mainly because the team is much lower in the standings than they were when Iginla was traded. Also we have at least 4 good trade chips that don't have full NTC.

[iggyloob12]

Aside from Johnny, the prospects from 2013 were kinda thin. I mean, Roman Horak make the team. I like where we're at now even with the boat-anchor contracts. The young players are providing some hope and excitement, and hopefully our improved drafting and developing will give us even more to cheer about in the future

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by DeluxeMoustache

Sorry, I don’t follow.

How are they better this time around, saddled with boat anchor contracts (consuming cap space) and no get out of jail card?

There are 16 teams currently on LTIR. Many of the top teams have to resign some of their players, or would be trying to add. The $4M cap increase is going to help but not that much.

This creates an opportunity. A team might be willing to move a first to get a bad contract out of town. MTL did this by taking on Monahan and a 1st. Arizona was doing it for quite a while. The point is that we can take bad contracts and embrace the suck.

Would you be opposed to a Markstrom for Campbell + 2 1sts and a 2nd trade for example? Or maybe take some guys that are under-performing in Colorado in Johansen and Girard.

[Macho0978]

Originally Posted by CFO

I'm assuming wolf will be an impact goalie.

Draft an impact player. Wolf as impact. And then sign an impact player. Having 3 true impact players is decent.

Flames don't have a history of signing true impact players.

Wolf might be an impact player but might not.

Right now, the Flames have 0 impact players and this is why they aren't contenders. IMO you need 3, but true impact players not good players.

Like Makar, Mackinnon and Rantanen type players. Flames aren't signing guys this good.

[The Cobra]

Originally Posted by CFO

I'm assuming wolf will be an impact goalie.

Draft an impact player. Wolf as impact. And then sign an impact player. Having 3 true impact players is decent.

Our chances of signing an "impact player" is likely not very high.

[stemit14]

It’s interesting looking back on that rebuild. It felt like it was so fast. I watched every game and it never felt frustrating to watch once the rebuild started. Iggy got traded in 2013 which was very sad. But we were able to cheer for him on the penguins and with the bruins… and he looked awesome on both teams - especially Boston.

The flames quickly established themselves as “the hardest working team in hockey” in the 2013-2014 season. And we all got to be really excited in anticipation of what Gaudreau was going to be as he had his amazing World Juniors and his Hobey Baker season.

One year after that and it was the funnest/most exciting season of hockey you could ever ask for as the flames made the playoffs and man-handled the aging Vancouver Canucks in the first round with a young, hard working team. Admittedly, they were lucky that season but it was a blast.


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[Aarongavey]

Originally Posted by CFO

In 2 years this team could be young and exciting as long as they don't mess up trades.

Wolf takes over in net.

Quality bottom 6 players who are young.

The D will be revamped.

Flames just need to draft 1 impact player and sign 1 impact player.

That is how we will find the next James Neal. The Flames need to stay out of the UFA market for at least two years. Just accept this team is nowhere near competing for a Cup.

See what a team like Colorado will add to get out of their bad contracts so they can be cap compliant next year (currently they have 14 players and 1.7 million in space to sign a minimum of 6 more players). See how much Florida would add on to Bob so they can ice a defence next year. The biggest impact players the Flames can find in the next couple years are anchor contracts that help the rebuild and secure more assets.

[Bingo]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

The 2013 team had all of their first round picks. But was down a 2nd rounder because of the absurd Regehr trade.

This team is down a 1st because of the absurd Monahan trade.

The 2022 draft hurts this version of the team.

Definity down a first for the Toffoli trade, but they added a first in the Tkachuk trade, and it's likely the one they lose to Montreal no?

[Enoch Root]

Yeah, they're not down a 1st, they traded away the 1st that they were up after the Tkachuk trade. So back to square.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Definity down a first for the Toffoli trade, but they added a first in the Tkachuk trade, and it's likely the one they lose to Montreal no?

You are right and I am double counting. Yes the 2022 draft was down a first (and a bunch of other picks) but going forward they are even on first round picks.

[gvitaly]

Originally Posted by Bingo

Definity down a first for the Toffoli trade, but they added a first in the Tkachuk trade, and it's likely the one they lose to Montreal no?

Yes.

Essentially if the 2025 FLA pick is 17-32, and the Flames pick in 2025 is 1-10. Then MTL gets the FLA pick.

If the CGY pick is higher than 10 then MTL gets the higher pick of the 2, likely the CGY pick.

[redmile04]

Originally Posted by CFO

In 2 years this team could be young and exciting as long as they don't mess up trades.

Wolf takes over in net.

Quality bottom 6 players who are young.

The D will be revamped.

Flames just need to draft 1 impact player and sign 1 impact player.

I dont disagree at all, and i know you are saying what they could do and what they could be. But, its the flames at the end of the day, what you mentioned about drafting is not challenging for a lot of franchises but for the flames it will be...

[camm13]

2014-2015 was definitely a fun season, so was beating Vancouver in the playoffs. However, that playoff run was also mgmt's "we made playoffs, we are just a player or two away from really contending" mentality. Then came the trade first rounders, add expensive declining UFA's (almost all ended up in buyouts), bandaid goalies, trading picks every year for 7th/8th defenders. If they had just stayed the course a little longer, the team would likely be a better position now.

2 of the 3 picks used on Hamilton could have been Barzal/Marchenko, the first for Hamonic, Noah Dobson, the 2nd for Elliot for Kyrou. Less money tied up in those UFAs, could have meant money to extend Tkachuk. 2013 onwards would have been a good time to properly rebuild, and not a sped up bandaid re tool

[gvitaly]

2013

• Bad GM
• Good coach for developing high skill players in Hartley
• Questionable drafting leading to 2013, a lot of misses.
• Terrible development record
• Bare farm system
• A star in Gaudreau developing in the system
• Great conditions for developing young D - Gio/Brodie to help their development
• Hudler was a great add to compliment/develop young developing forwards
• Uncertainty in goal without Kipper. No good vet mentors for young goalies in the system
• Deadline assets: #1RW(franchise player), #2D, #1LW(Squid),
• No anchor contracts - Tanguay @ 3.5 x 3 left was probably the longest contract of the bunch
• Owners had no appetite for taking bad contracts. Retaining salary wasn't in the CBA.

2024

• GM - remains a question mark. I think that his strong suit is scouting and identifying talent in younger players. I don't know how good he is at getting the most out of a trade, or an extension.
• Coach - again I don't know. He seemed to do well at developing D at all levels. As some have mentioned, the forward development seems a bit lacking.
• Better scouting and development
• The 1st round picks in the system are developing nicely
• Zary is on his way to become a 1st line forward
• Wolf is the best goalie in the AHL, and the future starter of the Flames
• We have great conditions for developing young goalies
• The AHL team is a top team and the league, and is located in CGY, which makes call-ups a lot easier
• There's a chance we lose a top pick to MTL as a result of the Monahan trade. Essentially trading down for the FLA pick.
• Deadline assets: #1/2C, #2D, #3D, #4/5D
• Several long contracts for older players: Huberdeau, Weegar, Kadri, Coleman
• The league is capped out - 16 teams on LTIR, lowering the potential return on trades.

I still liked the situation in 2013 better. Despite the bare cupboards, compared to what we have now. I think Feaster mostly made a mess out of it by not getting good value for our UFAs, and missing on a couple of 1st round picks in 2012/2013.

I don't know what we have in Conroy, but the Toffoli trade, and the rumored offered contract extensions to Lindholm($9M) and Hanifin($7.5) have me worried. I'm hoping that top level drafting and development will be the strength of this organization, and it will lead a 4-5 year plan of building from within.

[lazypucker]

I voted for 2023-2024 being the less of two evils, simply because Conroy admits he is new to the job and is willing to learn and listen to other's opinion before making rash/stupid decisions.

Our previous GM always thinks he is smarter than his co-workers, smarter than other GMs, and smarter than any players/agents/coaches/media, smarter than anyone. First Brouwer, then Neal, and then the dinner that cost $100m. It turns out he thinks he is smarter than himself and failed.

[GreenLantern2814]

The rebuild in 2013 had Gaudreau already in the system.

A true franchise player, who came in and made an immediate impact.

Sven was a 2 PPG player in the W his D+1 season, and had a spectacular emergency call up.

Gio and Brodie were just getting together, and Backlund was becoming the player he would be the rest of his career.

The goaltending was awful.

Drafting/pick hoarding under Feaster was alright. Drafting Monahan at 6 was a great call.

Fewer bad contracts to get out from under, by the time Treliving came along.

This time around:

No future superstars in house at the moment - Zary is a nice story, but nobody should see him as a franchise player yet.

Goaltending is stable - established vet, superstar rookie, and a big guy with upside who’s done some good things.

Defence: mostly on expiring or almost expiring deals. If Rasmus doesn’t want to be part of a rebuild, he could return more than anyone else on the roster. I like Poirier, Morin and Solovyev.

Forwards: absolutely wasteland when it comes to skill right now. Too small, too soft, too slow, you name it, they’ve got a problem with it.

Two terrible contracts which may not be movable, but with the cap being what it is, sucks to be them, they took the money, so go to work making yourself attractive for someone else to gamble on.

I think ultimately, this time we’re set up better because I think we’ll bottom out harder and get a better collection of prospects over the next 2-3 years than we did last time, and I think guys like Morin, Honzek and Poirier will all be excellent support players to whatever new core we draft.

Finally, I think there aren’t two people who care more about the greatness of the Calgary Flames than Craig Conroy and Jarome Iginla. They don’t need these jobs. They don’t need the money. They’re here to win, because they love the team and this city.

And I’m inclined to believe Murray Edwards might listen a little closer when those two guys tell him “it’s over, we need to tear it down” than the heir to the Boston Pizza fortune.

The team that opens the new building is going to be a good time.