Mac users! Prepare for Lion now with reverse scrolling

[HotHotHeat]

If you clicked this thread you have some serious nerd going on, congrats.

I'm happy I can get used to it, but man is it tough to remember.

http://blog.pilotmoon.com/post/40410...ctice-for-lion

[Flabbibulin]

I deactivated it right away.

Lots of other cool gesture stuff on here too.

[Flabbibulin]

Has anyone else been having trouble (more than normal anyways) with safari in 10.7? It is frequently not allowing me to type anything within the browser and I need to close and restart safari to get it working again- It isn't crashing as scrolling and clicking still work. Something Im guessing they will fix before the full release.

[silentsim]

I tried it out for a bit, but I reverted it back to normal scrolling (Using Lion)
FWIW, some people are under the impression you can't change it. However it is a simple option in trackpad options.

[SebC]

Wait... this isn't a hoax?

[silentsim]

Well, by default Lion offers "inverted scrolling" which is basically "Moving content in the direction of finder movement".

It is an on/off option.

I can see people use this, however it is not for me.

[sclitheroe]

I'm looking forward to inverted scrolling.

It makes sense to me that you are manipulating the window contents, not the scrollbar widget, which is what you're actually doing now - semantically, you're not scrolling anything, you're moving the scroll bar up or down and the window contents are responding to that. That's also why the scrollbars in 10.7 fade in and out - they aren't control intended to be directly manipulated anymore, they only need to show you where you are in the document when the position displayed changes.

[HotHotHeat]

Yea 24 hours later I'm fully used to it and it's great. Struggle through the first bit, it's worth it.

[SebC]

This still sounds crazy to me. If you're playing a game, or editting a photo, you have a mini-map or a thumbnail that shows the whole area. If you want to move which part of that whole you're looking at, you move the box on the mini-map/thumbnail to where you want to go. Click down, arrow down, content moves up. Scrolling should work the same way, no?

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by SebC

This still sounds crazy to me. If you're playing a game, or editting a photo, you have a mini-map or a thumbnail that shows the whole area. If you want to move which part of that whole you're looking at, you move the box on the mini-map/thumbnail to where you want to go. Click down, arrow down, content moves up. Scrolling should work the same way, no?

Picture a document window like a parchment scroll though, the kind with a top and bottom rod around which the paper rolls.

If I can only scroll through the parchment using the handles at the top and bottom, that would be like using the scroll bar - I'd use the top roller and roll "upwards" (away from me) to scroll down, and I'd use the bottom roller and roll "downwards" (towards me) to scroll up.

That's what the non-inverted scrolling is like. You're using the scroll wheel or track pad to directly manipulate the "rollers", which is the scroll bar on a GUI window.

If, however, you were to grab the edge of the paper scroll and pull upwards, you'd be scrolling downwards, and vice versa. This is what inverted scrolling represents - directly manipulating the paper, rather than the rollers (or window control in GUI parlance)


From a consistency perspective, inverted scrolling makes far more sense - wherever my mouse pointer is positioned, initiating a two finger swipe or a scroll wheel action will begin moving the displayed content underneath my mouse in the correct direction. Contrast that with non-inverted, where when I swipe or scrollwheel I'm actually interacting with a scroll bar control that is nowhere near my mouse - the scroll bar is going in the right direction, but the display content underneath my pointer is moving opposite.

Edit: Another way of saying this is that it's traditionally been backwards up until this change in 10.7 - you've never, ever, scrolled a window with a trackpad or a scrollwheel before. You've actually moved scrollbars, and just gotten used to your documents moving in the opposite direction in response to the change in scrollbar position.

[FanIn80]

Nm, Scott said it better.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

From a consistency perspective, inverted scrolling makes far more sense - wherever my mouse pointer is positioned, initiating a two finger swipe or a scroll wheel action will begin moving the displayed content underneath my mouse in the correct direction. Contrast that with non-inverted, where when I swipe or scrollwheel I'm actually interacting with a scroll bar control that is nowhere near my mouse - the scroll bar is going in the right direction, but the display content underneath my pointer is moving opposite.

Edit: Another way of saying this is that it's traditionally been backwards up until this change in 10.7 - you've never, ever, scrolled a window with a trackpad or a scrollwheel before. You've actually moved scrollbars, and just gotten used to your documents moving in the opposite direction in response to the change in scrollbar position.

I think I'd have to see this in context to truly understand it, but I get that it's moving the content directly, whereas the way it is now is moving "the observer". But to me, moving the observer makes more sense. If you want the stuff in your field of view (real, physical stuff) to shift to the right, you move your head left. If you want your cursor to go right, you move it right. If you want it to go further right, beyond the edge of your window, shouldn't you keep moving right?

I do see an advantage to the "grabby hand" that's in Photoshop and whatnot, as its easy to position the content accurately... but it's also huge annoying for very large content that you have to use it many, many times to get anywhere. For browsing and stuff, middle click + direction with mouse-wheel and scroll bars for finetuning seems like a better way to go.

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by SebC

I think I'd have to see this in context to truly understand it, but I get that it's moving the content directly, whereas the way it is now is moving "the observer". But to me, moving the observer makes more sense. If you want the stuff in your field of view (real, physical stuff) to shift to the right, you move your head left. If you want your cursor to go right, you move it right. If you want it to go further right, beyond the edge of your window, shouldn't you keep moving right?

I do see an advantage to the "grabby hand" that's in Photoshop and whatnot, as its easy to position the content accurately... but it's also huge annoying for very large content that you have to use it many, many times to get anywhere. For browsing and stuff, middle click + direction with mouse-wheel and scroll bars for finetuning seems like a better way to go.

The grabby hand is a different though. With the grabby hand, you plunk it down on the content and then move it and the content follows. It's like dropping a pin on a map, and then moving the map around by pushing/pulling on the pin.

There's no one right way to do it. The most important thing though is to stay logically consistent - if you are logically driving scrollbars and manipulating the viewport, it has to be the other way around, and if you are logically directly sliding sheets of content around, it has to be what we are calling inverted.

The advantage that Apple sees with inverted, of course, is that it keeps the experience between iOS and Mac OS consistent. Both are content, not control, driven interfaces with respect to scrolling.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

The grabby hand is a different though. With the grabby hand, you plunk it down on the content and then move it and the content follows. It's like dropping a pin on a map, and then moving the map around by pushing/pulling on the pin.

I assume the difference is it's not 1:1?

[sclitheroe]

Originally Posted by SebC

I assume the difference is it's not 1:1?

Hmm..I dunno

[SebC]

Originally Posted by sclitheroe

Hmm..I dunno

Well with the grabby hand the distance you move your cursor is the distance the content moves. 1 pixel = 1 pixel. Whereas with the scrollbars, movement scales to the size of the content.