[News] Nieuwendyk - Forever a Flame - March 7th Ceremony

[CaramonLS]

Originally Posted by mustache ride

You cant judge past players on today's standards. Holding out was an acceptable form of negotiation back then. Like it or not, that was the way it was done.

Holding out was an acceptable option, but Joe didn't just hold out. He was still under contract with the flames for that season because he went to arb, but wanted a longer team deal.

Very few players have refused to flat out play with their name inked to a contract. This was really a rare circumstance in any era. Nothing like a regular RFA hold out.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

I stand corrected. When I was at the ACC I completely missed this stuff.

Is it just an installation in the concourse?

I still think its lame, and the Leafs are the lamest of the o6.

Banners..




Only Bailey and Barilko are retired. They've also honoured Clark, Gilmour, and Sundin since those photos were taken. 21 (van Riemsdyk) and 4 (Franson) are the only honoured numbers currently being used.


The Blues have 6 retired numbers and 6 honoured.

[trackercowe]

Was hoping Burke Would get rid of junk like this. Yuck!

[nik-]

There seems to be a pretty significant gap between fan and organizational perspective of this program. To rebuild or not rebuild was pretty split, but most people seem to think this is a bad idea. Why do the Flames think it's a good one?

Or is CP just out on a wing regarding this program?

[bluloc]

Hope this isn't forshadowing anything.

[killer_carlson]

If you are a first team or even a second team all star, it means you were pretty damn good while you were here.

Your name should go on the list for consideration.

That means in addition to Fleury, Mullen, Loob, that Gary Suter also gets his name included for discussion purposes.

[trackercowe]

It all seems to be a minor publicity and money making scheme. The Flames aren't really the hot organization they once were, so to sell some merchandise and gets butts in the Dome they have nights like these to honor former players. Wouldn't be at all surprised if they do the same for Loob, Fleury, and Kiprusoff down the road if the rebuild takes longer then they expect. I would much rather then honor the player like others have suggested, and create a plaque or another memento instead of this.

I was a fan of Nieuwendyk myself, so I would have no issue if his number did get retired. But that should still happen after MacInnis, Kiprusoff, and probably Fleury as well; Nieuwendyk was more important than Loob or Mullen imo. I understand that they don't want to retire too many numbers though, so the plaque seems to be a more reasonable way to go. Although if they don't retire Kipper's number I won't be happy.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by nik-

There seems to be a pretty significant gap between fan and organizational perspective of this program. To rebuild or not rebuild was pretty split, but most people seem to think this is a bad idea. Why do the Flames think it's a good one?

Or is CP just out on a wing regarding this program?

One thing many people on CP display is a rigid adherence to first impressions. They hated this program when they heard of it and have now locked themselves into the opinion until the end of time.

In practice, the FaF program is the exact same thing Toronto does with honouring numbers. The only real problem is that the Flames gave it a dumb name rather than simply referring to it as being an honour system.

When you get right down to it, 9. 12. 14 and 30 are already retired numbers. What they call the ceremony and how they design the banners makes no difference in the practical sense. Hell, I think they should realign Lanny and Vernon's banners to match MacInnis'. A consistency in banner design would be beneficial.

[FireGilbert]

Forever a Flame is stupid as it prioritizes quantity over quality. Nieuwendyk was a great player but this seems to be an excuse to have a ceremony for someone who does not deserve a number retirement.

I agree with most of the posters saying either retire the number or don't. Currently #2, #9 and #30 should be retired with #34 and #12 to come.

[FlatLandFlamesFan]

At first I hated the FOF idea ,but its kinda warming on me

It's about damn time the Flames org. realizes that there were some very important player in this organization that should be honored.
I like that we're not going all out and throwing every number up there.

but if 14 is not retired outright (no player in their right mind will wear it anyways) I will lose my freakin' mind !
after Theo has to be Kipper/Iggy (depending on when Iggy retires)
PROUD flames fan since the beginning

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

In practice, the FaF program is the exact same thing Toronto does with honouring numbers. The only real problem is that the Flames gave it a dumb name rather than simply referring to it as being an honour system.

Well, this is an assumption that it's fine that the Leafs do this and that the only problem is the name. The problem is retiring numbers is a long standing tradition across the league, and hanging a banner with a player's name and number and pulling it out of the pool means something major.

The problem is the practice itself, not the name, and it's silly that the Leafs do it too. A number should only go to the rafters if it is retired, and retired for real. There are other ways to honour players than to mimic a time honoured tradition, while at the same time diminishing that tradition.

[dammage79]

IMO the jersey numbers to retire are: #2, #14, #12. To a lesser and more debatable point, #34. The rest should be honored in the forever a Flame thing.

[nik-]

Kipper is hard because we never won while he was here and he wasn't "best Flame ever" like Iginla will be at his point of number retirement. However he was the best goalie we ever had and maybe ever will ... so it's tough. I personally think his number should be retired.

As for this Forever a Flame, the reaction when/if they try to do this for Iginla will be outrage ... so then what? Another retirement? They're setting themselves up here for a PR blemishing.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by Badgers Nose

There are millions of better ideas than Forever a Flame.

Install a statue of Niewy on the concourse. Have ribbon cutting.

FaF is the by-product of a self conscious organization. IMO

I don't doubt there are lots of things that can be done, although in my opinion both your listed ideas are far worse than forever a Flame.

What I agree with is I don't like the "Forever a Flame" banner hanging the way it does. But right now,the dome provides a limited opportunity to do anything other than that. Wouldn't be shocked if the Flames found a much more pleasing fashion to display the inductees to "forever a flame" in the new building.

I'm a big Vernon fan, but I think the only mistake the Flames made was retiring his jersey. He too should have received the Forever a Flame treatment. IMO there are only two Flames that should receive the extra jersey retirement treatment in this organization, and it's the two players who were the extended faces of this franchise in their respective eras, and that's Lanny and when he retires Iggy. Forever a Flame is basically a Flames hall of fame if you will, and it's a perfect honor for the likes of Vernon, Big Al, Joe, Theo and Kipper and any other future Flames that make a significant contribution to this organizations history.

[nik-]

As for how they honour them I think they should do a Yankee style "Monument Park" thing in the arena, except flush against a wall facing, and it doesn't need to be engraved plaques. It can be a section for each honoured player with the jersey of their era in place. All Forever a Flame and Retired numbers should be there, but only the real retirees should be in the rafters and those numbers should be really retired.

Monument Park isn't the best example because that's how the Yankees retire their numbers, but it gets the general "a section for each player" thing right.

[Cleveland Steam Whistle]

Originally Posted by nik-

Kipper is hard because we never won while he was here and he wasn't "best Flame ever" like Iginla will be at his point of number retirement. However he was the best goalie we ever had and maybe ever will ... so it's tough. I personally think his number should be retired.

As for this Forever a Flame, the reaction when/if they try to do this for Iginla will be outrage ... so then what? Another retirement? They're setting themselves up here for a PR blemishing.

You've hit the nail on the head, mostly. The Flames will retire Iginla's number, I'd be shocked if they didn't and there'd be fan outrage if they didn't. But there'd be no PR blemish, everyone in the world would realize why the exception was made and be just fine with it (except maybe Theo......).

Iginla's place and role with this franchise has earned and warranted special treatment, and I'd be shocked if he didn't get it, and I'd be shocked if anyone outside of the org didn't understand why.

[Greybeard]

Retire if deserved. FaF is lame.

[Hockey_Ninja]

If Iggy and Kipper get Forever a Flame banners..oh man. Words can't describe how pissed I'd be.

[Yamer]

I think the thing that sticks in some people's craw (well, mine anyway) is that number retirements have been...well...retired, when they shouldn't be. MacInnis' #2 deserved an outright retirement, not a FaF. And I believe that Theo, Iggy, and Kipper all deserve that same honor.

This type of thing is perfect for guys like Nieuwendyk, but it somewhat devalues just how much those other guys really meant to the franchise when they're lumped into this all encompassing honor with guys like Joe. Not to diminish his impact on the team, but IMO it's not with the same distinction as the other players mentioned.

[Alberta_Beef]

I like the forever a Flame idea, the only problem is they have 2 numbers retired officially and have 3 or 4 more that no ones is allowed to wear.

If they are going to have "forever a Flame" to honour former players then they need to unretire Lanny's #9 and Vernon's #30 and allow 2, 12, 14 & 34 to be in use. And let players honour them by wearing their numbers.

Do it the way the Leafs do and don't retire any