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Old 07-23-2017, 10:55 PM   #41
albertGQ
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So with some people's logic, it would've been a better trade had we sent our 2005 first rounder (Matt Pelech) instead of our second rounder (Marc Vlasic).

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Old 07-23-2017, 11:09 PM   #42
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Kipper is the bigger steal but the work to bring in proven NHLers like Gilmour and Mullen is more impressive. Kipper was more easy to acquire. I also like the move to bring in John Tonelli
Funny how the Flames stole Gilmour and Mullen but were robbed in their trades out of Calgary.
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Old 07-23-2017, 11:19 PM   #43
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I'm not sure if giving up a second round pick for a third string goalie at the time, that was also ready to go back to Finland a fleecing.
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Old 07-23-2017, 11:23 PM   #44
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So with some people's logic, it would've been a better trade had we sent our 2005 first rounder (Matt Pelech) instead of our second rounder (Marc Vlasic).

Odd
Are we judging the trade with hindsight or not? Without knowing what those players were going to be, of course a second isn't worth as much as a first, but we also didn't know what Kipper was going to be. We traded a 2nd for a 27 year old goalie who had played a total of 47 NHL games with a career 2.84 GAA and .897 Sv%. If the Sharks knew Kipper was going to be half the goalie he was, he certainly wouldn't have ended up as their 3rd choice guy.
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Old 07-23-2017, 11:57 PM   #45
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Yeah but you don't know what the Flames would have done with that 2nd pick. Likely they draft someone other than Vlasic. Even if they do take Vlasic, maybe they mismanage his development. At the time of the trade, the 2nd is worth a 2nd round pick and a first is a worth a first and nothing else. It's not Kiprusoff for Vlasic. Even in hindsight.

It's like saying if in 1985 you gave me 100 bucks and I invested it in Microsoft and became a millionaire, you can't say you made me a millionaire. My decision to invest it made me a millionaire.
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Old 07-24-2017, 12:16 AM   #46
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Another one that was less one sided but equally key was when they traded shantz, morris and mcammond for drury and yelle. I think that deal along with a couple others helped turn the team around. Morris was a lazy holdout who for me never seemed to give 100% on the ice. Shantz was hard working but not great at hockey. Loved Deano but he was a 3rd liner on any good team.
... and we got McAmmond back for a 5th rounder.
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Old 07-24-2017, 12:52 AM   #47
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It's lots of apples to oranges.

I don't consider it fleecing, when at the time the deal was reasonable. Like the Kipper trade. He was their third string at the time......and it's not like we destroyed them in the long run either. They continued to have great goaltending in SJ, for the duration of Kipper's career, and the pick worked out well. I am sure SJ would do it all over again if they had a time machine.

Hamilton. Yes on paper this is a fleece right from the day it happened. But for it to be even considered for the greatest in team history......Hamilton will need to play a large role in a cup win. The draft picks we gave up turn out to be busts, and Boston's team defence struggles.

Mullen fits both....right away it was a one sided deal on paper. He won a cup and scored a lot of points over his time here.
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Old 07-24-2017, 03:10 AM   #48
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Rocky Thompson for Filip Kulak might be one of the biggest fleecings. Unfortunately IIRC we changed GMs and Button protected an ancient Tommy Albelin who was on his last legs over Kuba, I was pretty choked about that. Kuba went on to have a great career and Thompson was quickly out of the league. Button had a pretty rough start to his tenure losing Kuba for nothing, buying out Martin St. Louis and dealing Giguere for a 2nd. Turns out firing Al Coates was a costly move at that time. Thank god we've got the most competent GM now that we've ever had in my time of following the team.

Kipper for a 2nd fits.

Hamilton for picks will likely end up as the biggest fleecing. Thought so at the time and I'm more convinced now than I was then.

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Old 07-24-2017, 03:45 AM   #49
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Doug Risebrough for 2 C level prospects who never played an NHL game was a good one. He was exactly what the Flames needed. A gritty role player with a fist full of rings. Too bad they let him be GM.


Didn't Larry Ryckman trade junk bonds for Doug Flutie?

Now that is fleecing.
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Old 07-24-2017, 06:00 AM   #50
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I think the obvious answers have already been made, but if I may allow recency bias to cloud my judgement, there are three trades in recent years where the return still stuns me as much as it did at the time the trade was made.

Reto Berra for a 2nd round pick. Pretty great return for a guy that was barely an NHL backup.

Curtis Glencross for a 2nd and 3rd round pick. Not one but TWO decently high picks for a guy that was out of the league a couple of months later. THAT is a fleecing.

Kris Russell for a conditional 2nd (made a 1st round pick if the Stars made the conference finals...which they almost did if not for a game 7 loss to St. Louis), Jyrki Jokipakka, and Brett Pollock. I still can't figure out how Treliving got this much back for a mediocre #4 defenseman. The fact that this nearly turned into a 1st round pick still astonishes me. Jokipakka didn't work out, but at the time he was considered an NHLer with potential. Pollock is a throw in B prospect, and even if that 1st round pick was in the late 20's, it's still an impressive return for a guy that barely got a 1 year deal the next year.

I think I've seen some of the most impressive fleecing in the past few years.
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Old 07-24-2017, 06:34 AM   #51
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My immediate answer was kipper, a franchise goaltender, for just a second rounder. However, I think there are better examples in this thread where flames were able to get KNOWN commodities in shockingly lower than expected prices
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Old 07-24-2017, 06:57 AM   #52
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The Kipper trade wasn't a fleecing because at the time he wasn't a known commodity. It was a trade that turned out very good but at the time there wasn't a single person in the hockey community that thought it was a fleecing at the time of the trade. Sutter was only looking for a goaltender due to injury of Turek and had no idea that Kipper would be a long time solution.

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Old 07-24-2017, 07:14 AM   #53
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The player selected 2 picks after Vlasic was a 6'4" 213lb Dman out of the WHL who played 1 NHL game, that's probably who Sutter would have picked.
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Old 07-24-2017, 07:21 AM   #54
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Mullen or McDonald. I would say McDonald was more valuable in the long run.
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Old 07-24-2017, 07:47 AM   #55
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The thing that stops me from saying the Kipper deal is that he wasn't know to be the next big thing in goaltending, it just worked out that way. It's probably the best value trade in Flames history, but not to much a fleecing.

I have to say the Hamilton trade. Everyone knew Hamitlon was a future top pairing dman and Treliving still managed to get him for extremely cheap. Now THAT'S a fleecing.
That's how I see it too. No one, other then perhaps Sutter, knew of Kipper's potential. I'll never forget an article that came out in the Herald the next day from Bruce Dowbiggen. Can't find the original article, but another CP poster here was able to find the quote:

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Miikka The Great

Miikka Kiprusoff for a second-round draft pick? Not THE Miikka Kiprusoff? With the 3.25 goals-against average? And a 5-14 record last year? That Miikka Kiprusoff? Apparently Darryl Sutter thinks he's a No. 1 NHL goalie. Oh.
Bruce Dowbiggin, "I Don't Like Mondays", November 17th, 2003
http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthr...41#post4118641

Kipper was a completely unknown commodity at the time. If the Flames go out tomorrow and trade a 2nd round pick for some no name 3rd string goalie, and a couple years later he ends up being a franchise goalie, that's not really a fleecing. If the Flames trade a 2nd rounder for Carey Price, that's a fleecing since it's well known Price is the best goalie in the world. McDavid for a 2nd is a fleecing.

So I see the Hamilton trade as more of a fleecing then the Kipper trade. Literally the entire hockey world knew Hamilton was an up and coming top pairing 40+ pts defenceman at age 22. Bruins fans were livid. Hockey fans around the world were shocked. And now, Hamilton has proven to be even better then when he was acquired, as predicted. To me that's a fleecing.

I'm not old enough to recall if that might be the biggest fleecing in Flames history. But IMO Kipper's trade doesn't belong on the list.

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Old 07-24-2017, 08:38 AM   #56
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The Leeman trade.
Qualifying in this category by either saying that Doug Risebrough fleeced his own team.
...or that then flames GM/President Cliff Fletcher appointed Doug Risborough to GM on confidential condition that he allow flames to be fleeced by Fletcher shortly after. therefore a "delayed fleecing" by a Flames GM.
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:45 AM   #57
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Nearly 30 year old Nieuwendyk for 18 year old Iginla and Millen turned out well. Good trade for both teams, not really a fleecing.
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:47 AM   #58
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Are we judging the trade with hindsight or not? Without knowing what those players were going to be, of course a second isn't worth as much as a first, but we also didn't know what Kipper was going to be. We traded a 2nd for a 27 year old goalie who had played a total of 47 NHL games with a career 2.84 GAA and .897 Sv%. If the Sharks knew Kipper was going to be half the goalie he was, he certainly wouldn't have ended up as their 3rd choice guy.
This is the key thing about that trade IMO, and what prevents it from being the biggest fleecing.

You can't use hindsight that Kipper turned into a Vezina calibre goalie but then ignore the fact that the second rounder became a Canadian Olympic d-man.
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Old 07-24-2017, 08:57 AM   #59
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... and we got McAmmond back for a 5th rounder.
But he could not play in the playoffs. Beginning of the end for Button...
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Old 07-24-2017, 09:09 AM   #60
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This is the key thing about that trade IMO, and what prevents it from being the biggest fleecing.

You can't use hindsight that Kipper turned into a Vezina calibre goalie but then ignore the fact that the second rounder became a Canadian Olympic d-man.
Pretty much. It's funny that people bring up the Berra trade.

I'm pretty sure that is exactly how San Jose felt when Sutter called them up.

"You want to give us a second rounder for this guy? Done deal!!"

They thought they were trading a Reto Berra, not a vezina winner.
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