[News] Burke says he is unlikely to trade up... hasn't watched Bennett

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

I love extreme examples to prove points.

If Keenan Kanzig was drafted 6th overall by the Calgary Flames then he wouldn't have been off the board, he would have been 6th overall on their draft board.

Each teams personal draft lists are the only one that matter, not these imaginary ones fans focus on and sulk over when things don't go according to a fictional plan.

I agree that each teams lists are the only ones that matter, and that's how each team should draft prospects. That's the scouting staffs job. The front office's job is to determine the relative value of the prospect and determine "do I move up to get this guy, if I move down will he still be there." It's precisely why the team sitting with the 30th selection next year isn't going to be surprised when McDavid isn't there for them.

Why would the Flames have moved down in the draft to take Jankowski if they thought he was going to be the best player in the draft 10 years from now? Why didn't they move up in that instance? Seems to me that would have been the logical thing to do, if they felt as strongly as they did about Mark becoming the best player from it. It's all about value, and they felt strongly he'd be there for them later...how they determined that I am unsure of though since there is apparently no board.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

There is no board.

"The Flames received some criticism for going "off the board" and selecting Jankowski well above his expected draft place, but assistant general manager John Weisbrod stated that while Jankowski's talent was "raw", other teams were certain to select him in the first round if the Flames did not. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Jankowski

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Dagger

Why would the Flames have moved down in the draft to take Jankowski if they thought he was going to be the best player in the draft 10 years from now? Why didn't they move up in that instance? Seems to me that would have been the logical thing to do, if they felt as strongly as they did about Mark becoming the best player from it. It's all about value, and they felt strongly he'd be there for them later...how they determined that I am unsure of though since there is apparently no board.

Honestly, I don't care.

I have a feeling the Flames have a group of players available to them in that area they licked and Feaster's big mouth did the talking post-pick and he started his sell job of "best player" from the draft etc.

how they determined that I am unsure of though since there is apparently no board

GM's talk, they can probably get a feel for who each team likes, doesn't like etc. We've seen examples of this play out on draft floors before. Burke talking to Ottawa's Bryan Murray about Kadri springs immediately to mind.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Yoho

"The Flames received some criticism for going "off the board" and selecting Jankowski well above his expected draft place, but assistant general manager John Weisbrod stated that while Jankowski's talent was "raw", other teams were certain to select him in the first round if the Flames did not. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Jankowski

lol so what. We never heard it from anyone outside of the organization, so all those comments need to be taken with a grain of salt.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

I'll bump this post for you.


Each team has their own lists, there is no monolithic universal draft board that each team follows. They have their own lists. I have no idea why this is such a tough idea for some of you.

There is no single one draft board to rule them all, one board to find them, one board to bring them all and in darkness bind them.

I think we're having a communication problem. I am fully aware each team has their own lists and drafts accordingly. Of course there isn't one ranking that defines all, otherwise there would be no point of watching or holding a draft when you could just distribute prospects accordingly.

What I am arguing is that the term board is used in reference to value. It's a rough estimate of where a prospect is going to be taken. Burke had Reilly first overall on his board in 2012. He didn't move up to 1 to ensure he could get him, because he was fairly certain he'd be there at 5. How'd he estimate this? The mythical big board that serves as a rough guide.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by nik-

lol so what. We never heard it from anyone outside of the organization, so all those comments need to be taken with a grain of salt.

"It's time to rewind back a couple of years to the 2012 NHL Entry Draft, when the Flameswent completely off the board and chose Mark Jankowski with the 21st overall pick."
http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.co...mark-jankowski

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Yoho

"The Flames received some criticism for going "off the board" and selecting Jankowski well above his expected draft place, but assistant general manager John Weisbrod stated that while Jankowski's talent was "raw", other teams were certain to select him in the first round if the Flames did not. "

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Jankowski

First of all, you're quoting wikipedia, can you find the actual article?

Secondly, you're proving my point. I'm not exactly sure what you're angle is here. That article, whoever wrote it, is doing exactly what you're doing, suggesting there is some mystical draft board out there that the Flames went off of.

Each team has there own list. Get that into your head. There is no board.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Yoho

"It's time to rewind back a couple of years to the 2012 NHL Entry Draft, when the Flameswent completely off the board and chose Mark Jankowski with the 21st overall pick."
http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.co...mark-jankowski

FlamesFan99 is my favourite respected hockey writer too. Yikes.

All your posting is examples of continued incorrect use of this off the board meme.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

FlamesFan99 is my favourite respected hockey writer too. Yikes.

All your posting is examples of continued incorrect use of this off the board meme.

It sounds like your the only one that is unaware there is a board.

Great example with Kanzig.

[Dagger]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

Honestly, I don't care.

I have a feeling the Flames have a group of players available to them in that area they licked and Feaster's big mouth did the talking post-pick and he started his sell job of "best player" from the draft etc.


GM's talk, they can probably get a feel for who each team likes, doesn't like etc. We've seen examples of this play out on draft floors before. Burke talking to Ottawa's Bryan Murray about Kadri springs immediately to mind.

Then that's your own speculation. I'll take Feaster and Weisbrod for their words, over your own theory.

So when they get a feel for who likes who, are they not creating relative rankings? It's how they determine how far to move up and down in drafts to get a prospect. If they knew Jankowski was coveted by the teams picking at 12 and 10 let's say, they're not going to trade up to 3rd overall to secure him, but instead 8 or 9 because that's what they deem his relative worth to be amongst given the information at hand to the rest of the league. That's what my definition is of "the board."

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by nik-

lol so what. We never heard it from anyone outside of the organization, so all those comments need to be taken with a grain of salt.

Exactly.

If Feaster, Weisbrod or anyone associated with that draft came out and said "We had Jankowski rated 58th on our draft list but we decided to go crazy and go off our draft board and pick him 21st" then I'd be totally on board with this crap. But that isn't what happened. By the Flames own list, and we know it by the fact they picked him, they had him listed in the first round.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Yoho

It sounds like your the only one that is unaware there is a board.

Great example with Kanzig.

I'll wait until FlamesFan99 posts another great insider piece from MatchstickAndGasoline.com before I assess Keenan Kanzig.

[Roof-Daddy]

There isn't one "draft board"......there is 30 different "draft boards".

This mythical "board" people like to bring up is just the media attempting to create a consensus when there really isn't one.

That's why every single year there are "surprises" during the actual draft.....because there isn't a consensus draft board.

[JiriHrdina]

Originally Posted by Dagger

I agree that each teams lists are the only ones that matter, and that's how each team should draft prospects. That's the scouting staffs job. The front office's job is to determine the relative value of the prospect and determine "do I move up to get this guy, if I move down will he still be there." It's precisely why the team sitting with the 30th selection next year isn't going to be surprised when McDavid isn't there for them.

Why would the Flames have moved down in the draft to take Jankowski if they thought he was going to be the best player in the draft 10 years from now? Why didn't they move up in that instance? Seems to me that would have been the logical thing to do, if they felt as strongly as they did about Mark becoming the best player from it. It's all about value, and they felt strongly he'd be there for them later...how they determined that I am unsure of though since there is apparently no board.

There is no board but that doesn't mean that teams aren't trying to gain some insight into what players other teams are likely to target and therefore try to maximize value. Teams likely have some idea of how often other teams have scouted a player, and scouts no doubt probably talk. You can probably even find out if a team has interviewed a player. Lots of ways to gain some insight into what other teams are going to do.

There is no one board.
There are 30 of them.
And you would be a fool to just ignore what those other 29 boards likely look like.
But worrying about any of the consensus singular lists would be foolish for a GM

Moreover, the decision isn't nearly as simplistic as you make it out to be - and I suspect you know this. That is the Flames likely had a few players in mind - we know if they didn't take Janko they likely would have taken Sieloff with the pick.

So the decision is more like this.
- We don't move down and just get Janko
- We move down and a few things can happen
1. We get Janko AND the other guy we like (Sieloff)
2. Janko gets picked and we take Sieloff plus someone else instead (Matt Finn was a guy they liked I think)
3. Janko gets picked so we move down again - or trade the 1st altogether. Or we take Sieloff and move the 2nd.

So you are balancing all of those outcomes, and how much you like one over the other. In this case it is pretty crystal clear that the while the Flames liked Janko, they were willing to risk not getting him to potentially get a 2nd player they liked.

Makes sense to me. Not sure why people try to look at things like this in such black and white terms.

[BlackWallStreet]

I had sexual relations with a girl named "sam bennett" so it'd be kinda weird if we drafted him imo

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Dagger

Then that's your own speculation. I'll take Feaster and Weisbrod for their words, over your own theory.

So when they get a feel for who likes who, are they not creating relative rankings? It's how they determine how far to move up and down in drafts to get a prospect. If they knew Jankowski was coveted by the teams picking at 12 and 10 let's say, they're not going to trade up to 3rd overall to secure him, but instead 8 or 9 because that's what they deem his relative worth to be amongst given the information at hand to the rest of the league. That's what my definition is of "the board."

Relative rankings, sure. A smart GM will weigh what other GM's are doing. I don't pretend to know how it all shook out and I won't speculate on this particular pick too much because honestly, it's been debated to death in other threads.

What I am saying is there is no draft board that ranks guys 1-600 in each draft. Besides the top 2-5 guys in any draft teams have wildly different lists, especially once it gets out of the teens and especially once it gets out of the first round. Posters here get way too focused on various draft lists, rankings, mock drafts etc etc leading up to the draft and become obsessive wannabe experts that whine uncontrollably when a name they've never heard of gets drafted where they didn't expect their magazine to draft them at. That's what I'm referring to when I say there is no one board. There are 30 NHL draft boards, and if you pick apart those draft lists there are 100's of different lists, each team compiles a lists from each scouts list which probably isn't refined until the final days leading up to the draft.

The only draft board that matters at the end of the day is the one post draft. Mark Jankowski was ranked 21st overall in the 2012 draft. You know how I know that? That's where he was god damn picked.

[Yoho]

Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm

I'll wait until FlamesFan99 posts another great insider piece from MatchstickAndGasoline.com before I assess Keenan Kanzig.

How about that rag TSN?


"The Flames may have gone off the board with this selection, but they are certain it wasn't an off-the-wall pick, given Jankowski's offensive talent and his still-developing physique."


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=399055

[keratosis]

Don't think I ever thanked mmf so much in one thread.
The board is a lie.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Yoho

"It's time to rewind back a couple of years to the 2012 NHL Entry Draft, when the Flameswent completely off the board and chose Mark Jankowski with the 21st overall pick."
http://www.matchsticksandgasoline.co...mark-jankowski

You misunderstand me. While I don't think there's a rigid "board" I do think that there is a general ranking of players across all the sources. In general I agree with you.

What I meant was that the "someone was ready to take him" comment means nothing when it's only the people responsible for the pick saying it.

[MrMastodonFarm]

Originally Posted by Yoho

How about that rag TSN?


"The Flames may have gone off the board with this selection, but they are certain it wasn't an off-the-wall pick, given Jankowski's offensive talent and his still-developing physique."


http://www.tsn.ca/nhl/story/?id=399055

You're really starting to embarrass yourself here. I don't think you even know what you're going on about. You're only proving my point for me. Media likes to use the term "off the board' as a figure of speech to say a guy not expected to go where he went. That figure of speech is taken literally by people like you.

Are you honestly suggesting there is one draft list for all 30 teams?

Think about what you're saying when you post stuff like that.