I don't Like Corrado -- But I like Johnny Hockey

[Meers]

Yeah it was a cheapshot. Five and a game is probably right, given that Gadreau wasn't hurt.

But 15 games? C'mon people. Get real. You're throwing stones in a glass house. On that basis McGrattan's out of the league for ending Andrew Albert's career.

Brain-cramped goonery like that is probably why Corrado continues to be No. 8 on the Canucks depth chart as a defenceman - and why we won't see him in the NHL this season unless a couple of Canucks go down with injuries.

Heck PK Subban's little brother (and by little, I mean midget) outplayed Corrado in this tournament. I can't see Corrado as anything more than a fringe NHLer, so he isn't worth getting emotionally invested in.

[Street Pharmacist]

Subban was horrawful. I was at the Winnipeg game and counted seven turnovers. He is fast but stupid with the puck. I'll eat my hat if that guy is an NHL talent

[Meers]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

Subban was horrawful. I was at the Winnipeg game and counted seven turnovers. He is fast but stupid with the puck. I'll eat my hat if that guy is an NHL talent

I think that speaks to how weak Corrado is.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Meers

I think that speaks to how weak Corrado is.

I actually came away thinking he looked like a pro. For example, twice the puck bounced over his stick when he was trying to hold the offensive blue line. Both times he took the man without taking a penalty. Bouncing picks happen to everyone, but lots of junior players just turn and bolt after it and lose the race

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Oil Stain

There basically isn't much point in nuclear deterrents, because it's never been proven to work.

The Flames had Smith, Kanzig and Ferland in the game and Gaudreau still received a cheap shot.

The Matt Cookes of the hockey world have never been deterred by enforcers and they never will be.

I don't mind having an enforcer or two per team as fights are pretty fun to watch, but its pretty hard to prove they prevent injuries of any kind.

I'd argue having goons in the game probably increases injuries because the only way they can have an impact is to run around trying to kill the skilled players with big hits.

Well, Ferland isn't a nuclear deterrent, though he is extremely tough for his size and has beat up on pure goons throughout the WHL and one in the AHL last year. I do understand your point, but SLIGHTLY disagree with it.

I remember when Hordichuk was on Van, and they would send him over the boards and he would be running guys pretty hard. Other players on Van seemed to pick their game up and also play more physical. Flames would send McGrattan over the boards, he would tell Hordichuk to cool it, and just fly by the Vancouver bench and say something. I did notice Hordichuk usually ease up, and if he didn't, McGrattan ended up tuning him. Seemed to perk up the Flames, and the Canucks didn't play as aggressively - for a while at least. Just an observation I noticed at times (and will not rule out any bias on my part - fully aware that I may have a bias that would cloud what I am actually seeing). I do think having someone like McGrattan just pass by the bench and make some statement does influence how the other team behaves - to a point of course. How much? No idea - I do notice it does seem to help at times.

What I found interesting is what Brian Burke said towards the end of the season in regards to using both McGrattan and Westgarth. I am paraphrasing, but essentially something like this: "Having both of these in the lineup not only allows our players to play with more confidence, it reduces the amount of nonsense that other teams get away with" (that part was a bit more fuzzy in my memory), but then he went on to say this which I found most interesting: "The hits against out players reduced measurably when both McGrattan and Westgarth were in the lineup."

I brought it up here on a past thread a while ago, and asked if anyone can confirm the average hits per game against he Flames before Westgarth was added, the average after he was added (and was playing) and what it was like when neither Westgarth or McGrattan play. Would be nice to see a confirmation of what Burke stated (I think it was on the Fan960). However, this is also difficult to accomplish as hits are vary in how they are counted, with some arenas having a different opinion as what constitutes a hit.

Still, would be interesting, and MAYBE could be indicative of the 'value' that guys like this add to teams. Needs a large sample size, however.

[Phanuthier]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

Well, Ferland isn't a nuclear deterrent, though he is extremely tough for his size and has beat up on pure goons throughout the WHL and one in the AHL last year. I do understand your point, but SLIGHTLY disagree with it.

I remember when Hordichuk was on Van, and they would send him over the boards and he would be running guys pretty hard. Other players on Van seemed to pick their game up and also play more physical. Flames would send McGrattan over the boards, he would tell Hordichuk to cool it, and just fly by the Vancouver bench and say something. I did notice Hordichuk usually ease up, and if he didn't, McGrattan ended up tuning him. Seemed to perk up the Flames, and the Canucks didn't play as aggressively - for a while at least. Just an observation I noticed at times (and will not rule out any bias on my part - fully aware that I may have a bias that would cloud what I am actually seeing). I do think having someone like McGrattan just pass by the bench and make some statement does influence how the other team behaves - to a point of course. How much? No idea - I do notice it does seem to help at times.

What I found interesting is what Brian Burke said towards the end of the season in regards to using both McGrattan and Westgarth. I am paraphrasing, but essentially something like this: "Having both of these in the lineup not only allows our players to play with more confidence, it reduces the amount of nonsense that other teams get away with" (that part was a bit more fuzzy in my memory), but then he went on to say this which I found most interesting: "The hits against out players reduced measurably when both McGrattan and Westgarth were in the lineup."

I brought it up here on a past thread a while ago, and asked if anyone can confirm the average hits per game against he Flames before Westgarth was added, the average after he was added (and was playing) and what it was like when neither Westgarth or McGrattan play. Would be nice to see a confirmation of what Burke stated (I think it was on the Fan960). However, this is also difficult to accomplish as hits are vary in how they are counted, with some arenas having a different opinion as what constitutes a hit.

Still, would be interesting, and MAYBE could be indicative of the 'value' that guys like this add to teams. Needs a large sample size, however.

GREAT post. I remember early on in the year, Lee Stempniak having to search for his tooth alone after Andy Ference beat him up. The Flames bench just looked away in fear. Bring in some tough guys, and as the season went on, the Flames started to play bigger and tougher.

I think this whole revenge thing has been covered more than enough, but not all revenge has to end the same way it did for Steve Moore. Anybody remember Robyn Regehr's angst for Ales Hemsky cause he got high sticked once? For half a decade after, Regehr would obliterate Hemsky along the end boards cause of it. Nobody has to go over the top like Bertuzzi did, but you can bet more than a few Flames players are going to remember that cheap shot and they are probably going to mix things up.

[Azure]

Well if you have skilled players that play tough it eliminates the need for a goon.

The goon is a reaction to having players in the league that are prone to cheapshotting. To the guys that have random flying elbows. Remove those players from the league, or remove the process where they react by sticking the elbow/knee/etc out when they get burnt, and you probably don't need the goon. Players like Iginla have always been able to take care of their own stuff and didn't necessarily need a goon, but a player like Crosby isn't necessarily a 'tough' player, so the bums of the NHL might take liberties with him because they know he won't kick their ass the next shift. Hence the reason for the Penguins needing to employ goons or guys that will fight to protect Crosby.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Azure

Well if you have skilled players that play tough it eliminates the need for a goon.

The goon is a reaction to having players in the league that are prone to cheapshotting. To the guys that have random flying elbows. Remove those players from the league, or remove the process where they react by sticking the elbow/knee/etc out when they get burnt, and you probably don't need the goon. Players like Iginla have always been able to take care of their own stuff and didn't necessarily need a goon, but a player like Crosby isn't necessarily a 'tough' player, so the bums of the NHL might take liberties with him because they know he won't kick their ass the next shift. Hence the reason for the Penguins needing to employ goons or guys that will fight to protect Crosby.

That's what is so special about Ferland. He can play the goon but also is skilled enough to take a regular shift. Well that's what we hope for and something we haven't had for ages. He's the type of player that many fans who hate goons and fighting, can like because he's skilled enough to play.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Vulcan

That's what is so special about Ferland. He can play the goon but also is skilled enough to take a regular shift. Well that's what we hope for and something we haven't had for ages. He's the type of player that many fans who hate goons and fighting, can like because he's skilled enough to play.

I am still one of the minority that likes to have a heavyweight and thinks that a good one can add a lot to a team, I really do love guys like Ferland. He can actually ride shotgun on almost any line if he continues developing without being a detriment offensively (and as much as I love guys like McGrattan, he simply would drag an offensive line down).

Ferland will be a huge fan-favorite if he continues on his trajectory. Closest thing to a Gary Roberts and Jarome Iginla (not that I am saying he will have that high of an offensive ceiling as those two, but you get the idea) this team has had in the pipe for years.

[Yrebmi]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

I am still one of the minority that likes to have a heavyweight and thinks that a good one can add a lot to a team, I really do love guys like Ferland. He can actually ride shotgun on almost any line if he continues developing without being a detriment offensively (and as much as I love guys like McGrattan, he simply would drag an offensive line down).

Ferland will be a huge fan-favorite if he continues on his trajectory. Closest thing to a Gary Roberts and Jarome Iginla (not that I am saying he will have that high of an offensive ceiling as those two, but you get the idea) this team has had in the pipe for years.

I don't think that opinion is the minority.

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by Yrebmi

I don't think that opinion is the minority.

It isn't so much lately with the success we've had with our tough guys but there have been a few heavy debates around here with many advocating to get rid of fighting completely.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Calgary4LIfe

...What I found interesting is what Brian Burke said towards the end of the season in regards to using both McGrattan and Westgarth. I am paraphrasing, but essentially something like this: "Having both of these in the lineup not only allows our players to play with more confidence, it reduces the amount of nonsense that other teams get away with" (that part was a bit more fuzzy in my memory), but then he went on to say this which I found most interesting: "The hits against out players reduced measurably when both McGrattan and Westgarth were in the lineup."

I brought it up here on a past thread a while ago, and asked if anyone can confirm the average hits per game against he Flames before Westgarth was added, the average after he was added (and was playing) and what it was like when neither Westgarth or McGrattan play. Would be nice to see a confirmation of what Burke stated (I think it was on the Fan960). However, this is also difficult to accomplish as hits are vary in how they are counted, with some arenas having a different opinion as what constitutes a hit.

Still, would be interesting, and MAYBE could be indicative of the 'value' that guys like this add to teams. Needs a large sample size, however.

This is something that I would be especially interested in seeing. Personally, I always suspect that peoples descriptions of hockey games like yours suffer significantly from confirmation biases. Without some sort of metric by which to quantify the impact of a McGrattan death stare, or a big check or a fight, then I am still highly dubious about the effectiveness of the nuclear deterrent in hockey. It seems at least as likely that we have become so accustomed to expecting these tactics to work—because we have been told since the beginning of hockey that this is how they work—that our perception of the on ice play naturally and instinctively shifts after one of our heavyweights takes a shift.

[Vulcan]

One thing I noticed was there was very little running of our goalies. It seemed in previous years Kiprusoff besides having to stop the puck, he had to evade opposing players crashing into him. If the rest of the team also gets the same respect, I'd say having a couple of enforcers is a plus.

[Calgary4LIfe]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is something that I would be especially interested in seeing. Personally, I always suspect that peoples descriptions of hockey games like yours suffer significantly from confirmation biases. Without some sort of metric by which to quantify the impact of a McGrattan death stare, or a big check or a fight, then I am still highly dubious about the effectiveness of the nuclear deterrent in hockey. It seems at least as likely that we have become so accustomed to expecting these tactics to work—because we have been told since the beginning of hockey that this is how they work—that our perception of the on ice play naturally and instinctively shifts after one of our heavyweights takes a shift.

First off, let me make the distinction between a heavyweight and a goon. Most people don't. McGrattan is a heavyweight, and though his playing ability can be questioned, it is at a higher level than your typical goon. My main distinction between a heavyweight and a goon is 'dirtiness' and 'self-control'.

For instance, while McGrattan obviously has poor advanced stats metrics (not surprisingly), he generally isn't a 'liability' out there in the traditional sense. For instance, the Flames figured out how to nullify McIntyre in his second stint with the Oilers. How did they do that? The players were told to "Hit him every chance you get", and they did just that one game with Sarich leading the way with a number of hits. McIntyre is a poor skater, and has no self-control. Eventually he took a penalty (and IIRC, perhaps a couple) and put the Flames on the PP. Contrastingly, I remember Steve Ott (while with Dallas) trying to incite McGrattan to take a selfish penalty in the middle of the ice. He was even pulling on McGrattan's chin strap, but McGrattan wasn't buying it. Knowing when to take a penalty and when not to is, of course, critical to the role and to the effect on the team. Taking 'ugly penalties' when the goon is essentially 'gooning' someone is just simply ugly and disgusting, and players of that ilk should get thrown out of the NHL altogether.

As for how actually useful they are to the team, Iginla has always stated he wants one on his team so he doesn't feel the need to do the police work himself. Fair enough. I guess it is difficult to argue against him.

What I find as the best 'measurement' in how an enforcer positively impacts the game is what other players say about how they feel with one in the lineup. I think it was Backlund (and a number of players, and I think Feaster has also said it himself) that the Flames players feel 2" taller and more comfortable out there with McGrattan in the lineup. To me, this alone (if true) is worth keeping McGrattan around. Perhaps it is nothing more than just the same feeling as people have carrying items of luck (rabbit's foot, etc.,), or perhaps there is more of an impact to the game than just that. However, I am one to argue that if the players feel more confident and more comfortable out there with McGrattan in the lineup (or such a player), then that is advantageous to the team as a whole doing better.

I also do know that it 'excites' players. I remember German Titov going on and on about how the entire team loves to watch Sandy McCarthy fight, and how much energy it gives them.

These comments (Iginla's, Backlund's and Titov's) make it impossible for me to disregard the impact that an enforcer can have on the team (outside of just being the 'good guy' in the dressing room), and can very well increase my confirmation bias. I do see patterns when they are being effective, however. I also do think that it is only a matter of time before the NHL puts a stop to it (and with concussion issues, stress and substance abuse issues amongst many of the heavyweights, I would not be against the NHL doing so).

This is why I am very interested in what Burke said about "the team getting hit less when both Westgarth and McGrattan are in the lineup". I am not sure we can have a large enough sample size, but I think people who oppose fighting, and people who support it would both find this information interesting. Would confirm or dispel some confirmation bias on my part - maybe. Maybe the sample size would be too small to really confirm any correlation to begin with. I just think it would be very interesting as it is one of the few (maybe only?) measurements that can show a potentially positive impact of having that role staffed on a team.

[heep223]

On the Fan this morning Rhett said that absolutely guys will remember this cheap shot (Corrado on Gaudreau), even if it's exhibition. And insinuated someone (other than Gaudreau haha) would be looking for him.

So to the posters saying that it's no big deal, and "grudges" don't spill over from previous games, and that it's ridiculous to think that guys would remember that elbow and go after Corrado, there's some insight from a former NHLer.

[ForeverFlameFan]

I would like to see Wolf, Ferland or McGrattan to go after the guy. More of Ferland since he played the same game.

[CaptainCrunch]

I doubt any of those guys are dressing tonight because they played last night.

Maybe we need to sign Alvin Mack to a one game contract



but I got you now, Corrado. I'm gonna bust your gut open and watch you die!

[heep223]

They should dress Grats for every game vs. the Canucks, regardless of when or where.

[Robbob]

Originally Posted by heep223

They should dress Grats for every game vs. the Canucks, regardless of when or where.

If we ever have a split squad game it will be worth the 2 minute penalty just to have him in the starting lineup in both games.

[CaptainCrunch]

Listening to the radio this morning the guys are really right about one thing. I don't like that I feel like the physical intensity in the two Edmonton games and last nights game was unacceptably low.

I'm not saying that they should be running guys through the glass, but for guys that are supposed to be making this team based on having a physical edge its really not there.

Who knows maybe playing the atomic jerkfaces from the West in a back to back will spark things.

but this team is playing way too much like a finesse team so far in training camp and the intensity is way lower then what we saw in the rookie camp.