Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community

[Igottago]

Originally Posted by transplant99

Not a single persoin in this thread has said that IIRC...only that its the reality of the situation and the evidence presented in a court of law backed it up.

Florida decided it WASNT murder.

And that's my point. Their law's don't make sense. You shouldn't be allowed to wield a weapon, stock a person, and end up killing them, just because you are some civilian with a hunch.

[missdpuck]

If Trayvon had been white, would people be saying "oh, he must have been doing something. No one would shoot a white kid for no reason."

And I'm definitely not saying Trayvon was doing anything wrong.

[Cowperson]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

What a joke.

He was killed because some maniac decided to confront him because he wrongly profiled him.

Martin didn't pull the scumbag out of his car. He got beat by a teen and his ego got the best of him.

The prosecution presented no confirming evidence that Zimmerman confronted or approached Martin.

It was Martin's girlfriend who testified she was talking to Martin when he said to someone off the phone "hey man, why you following me?" which could be equally interpreted as backing Zimmerman's story that Martin initiated contact.

As per detective Sorino's testimony. It is not illegal to suspect someone of criminal behaviour, it s not illegal to follow someone, it is not illegal to approach someone and ask them what they are doing in your neighbourhood. Zimmerman had every right to be walking around that neighbourhood as well.

It's an equally or more credible story that Martin initiated contact, was assaulting Zimmerman and that resulted in the shot being fired.

Not sure what you're even arguing about.

Cowperson

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Igottago

And that's my point. Their law's don't make sense. You shouldn't be allowed to wield a weapon, stock a person, and end up killing them, just because you are some civilian with a hunch.

Zimmerman did not wield his weapon when he was following Martin. In fact if he had, I do wonder if any of this would have ever happened.

He had disengaged from martin when the victim accosted him and began to beat him.

In Florida, and many other states, if someone starts to beat on you, you have the right to shoot them if you are carrying a gun and fear for your life...legally. Thats what self defense is.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

I only recently started to look at this case, mostly due to the outrage. I wanted to see what it was all about. Here's what I gather:

The community has had problems with break & enters, and crime.

The community setup a neighbourhood watch captained by George Zimmerman.

Zimmerman has called the police on numerous occasions regarding suspicious people, people of various races including his own.

The neighbourhood watch witnesses suspicious people in the area, called the police non-emergency number. The police took a while to get there to investigate. In the meantime the suspicious people broke into a house(s) and stole belongings and got away.

Several days later one of the suspects was apprehended, Zimmerman identified him as one of the two people who broke into the houses earlier.

Martin was staying in the neighbourhood as a guest, so he wasn't known to the community.

Late one night he went to the store and was strolling back to where he was staying looking at the neighbourhood wearing a black hoodie.

Zimmerman noticed Martin and thought he looked suspicious. Given the state of affairs in the community called it in and followed Martin.

The police told Zimmerman to stop following Martin. He did and started going back to his truck.

Some point between Zimmerman getting back to his truck but after talking to the police an altercation ensued between Martin and Zimmerman.

There was a scuffle, witness accounts vary as to whether Martin or Zimmerman was on top throwing punches. However given the lacerations on the back of Zimmerman's head and his broken nose combined with only laceration on Marton's fists, Martin was the one on top throwing punches.

Witnesses can't agree on who called for help, however it would be logical to infer given the injuries that it was Zimmerman.

Zimmerman shot Martin once in the chest.

Martin suffered a fatal wound due to the shot.


I *COULD* have those facts mistaken. But if those facts are true, and were presented to the jury that way, then from what I understand of Florida law (which is minimal) Zimmerman should be found not-guilty.


The big issue here as I see it given the above facts would be the use of lethal force to defend oneself against not lethal force and the ability for a mere civilian to carry a gun.


While it does not appear that Martin did anything illegal up until the scuffle and we don't know how that started. Zimmerman didn't appear to do anything illegal at all.

If I understand things correctly, yes you should be outraged but at the laws of the state of Florida which lead to this scenario.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

What a joke.

He was killed because some maniac decided to confront him because he wrongly profiled him.

Martin didn't pull the scumbag out of his car. He got beat by a teen and his ego got the best of him.

You clearly don't know what your talking about and decided to ignore the facts presented and agreed upon by the jury to make your point.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Who is that? ^^

And how do they pick jurors? Randomly I'm assuming?

No there was a jury selection process.

The jury was 6 woman of varying ages, including one hispanic.

It was probably a better persecution jury then a defense jury.

From the reporting of it, they were very attentive during the trial, they did do the proper deliberation, reviewed all pieces of evidence after requesting the evidence list. At the end they asked for a redefinition of manslaughter.

The picture is stupid, put together by someone who has no clue whatsoever.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

What a joke.

He was killed because some maniac decided to confront him because he wrongly profiled him.

Martin didn't pull the scumbag out of his car. He got beat by a teen and his ego got the best of him.

I haven't followed this case that closely. I have outlined what I understand tha facts to be three posts above.

Can you explain how you came to this conclusion?

I don't recall seeing anywhere that Zimmerman confronted Martin.

If Zimmerman did confront Martin I don't recall seeing that he initiated the fight.

There does seem to be ample evidence that Martin was beating on Zimmerman (lacerations on head, broken nose). Martin didn't have a scratch other than on his fists. Wouldn't that mean that Zimmerman could use his gun in self defence?

[CaptainCrunch]

Nope your right Maritime, Puckluck is just making things up to back up his theory.

[FlamesAddiction]

I don't disagree with the verdict, but I don't believe Zimmerman's account either. I can't help but believe that Zimmerman provoked the attack and there should be some legal accountability whether or not the point of the shooting was self defense after he provoked it. There was a lack of reliable witnesses though, so I understand why he received a not-guilty verdict.

[missdpuck]

Has anyone seen Thin Blue Line? Definitely a case where the prosecution won with a "theory".

[Bertuzzied]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

What a joke.

He was killed because some maniac decided to confront him because he wrongly profiled him.

Martin didn't pull the scumbag out of his car. He got beat by a teen and his ego got the best of him.

Wow you are getting pretty ignorant in this thread.

[puckluck2]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

I haven't followed this case that closely. I have outlined what I understand tha facts to be three posts above.

Can you explain how you came to this conclusion?

I don't recall seeing anywhere that Zimmerman confronted Martin.

If Zimmerman did confront Martin I don't recall seeing that he initiated the fight.

There does seem to be ample evidence that Martin was beating on Zimmerman (lacerations on head, broken nose). Martin didn't have a scratch other than on his fists. Wouldn't that mean that Zimmerman could use his gun in self defence?

Would you suggest a kid talking to his girlfriend carrying skittles would attempt to make contact with a complete stranger for no reason or would it be more believable that the cop wannabe was following and after words were exchanged a fight ensued where the scumbag got the short end of the stick?

And let's not ignore the fact that it was proved that the cops told him to stop following him and leave him alone. Martin had nothing to gain to confront the cop wannabe. Zimmerman provoked the situation, it's very obvious and it's no surprise that a group of 6 mostly white jurors who probably can't find their state on a map decided against the black dude. Racism is alive and well in the great USA.

[Maritime Q-Scout]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Would you suggest a kid talking to his girlfriend carrying skittles would attempt to make contact with a complete stranger for no reason or would it be more believable that the cop wannabe was following and after words were exchanged a fight ensued where the scumbag got the short end of the stick?

And let's not ignore the fact that it was proved that the cops told him to stop following him and leave him alone. Martin had nothing to gain to confront the cop wannabe. Zimmerman provoked the situation, it's very obvious and it's no surprise that a group of 6 mostly white jurors who probably can't find their state on a map decided against the black dude. Racism is alive and well in the great USA.

Given the facts that were/are presented:

Zimmerman apparently did retreat. At least at first.

If Zimmerman did confront Martin, how did Martin end up on top of Zimmerman without a scratch?

Also the question isn't what's more believable, but is it believable that Martin could reasonably have been the confronter/aggressor?

Zimmerman never had an issue in the past, Martin was on top of him punching away without a scratch.

Seems odd.

The system is, you must find someone guilty BEYOND A REASONABLE DOUBT. you have raised doubts, and may be correct on a balance of probabilities, but there is reasonable doubt here.

It is reasonable to infer that Martin COULD have been the aggressor. Not that he actually was.

That's enough to warrant a verdict of not-guilty.


Also Zimmerman has called a vast amount of suspicious persons to the police of various races, including his own.

I don't believe this is racism, if anything it's ageism. The fact Martin was an unknown teenager appears to have played a greater role in Zimmerman's thinking than Martin's race.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Whatever happened between Zimmerman and Martin will never truly be known. Based off what the prosecution presented they had no shot to get a murder conviction. Had they been pursuing manslaughter the entire time they might have a better chance but still probably not. Zimmerman still gets punished in that his life is going to be difficult going forward. Ironically he might need to go hoodie up everywhere he goes to not get recognized.

[RedMileDJ]

I kind of giggle a little bit when people bring up racism when talking about this trial and what happened / the facts shown.

Racism played no part in this whole situation. The media decided to add racism in.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by puckluck2

Would you suggest a kid talking to his girlfriend carrying skittles would attempt to make contact with a complete stranger for no reason or would it be more believable that the cop wannabe was following and after words were exchanged a fight ensued where the scumbag got the short end of the stick?

And let's not ignore the fact that it was proved that the cops told him to stop following him and leave him alone. Martin had nothing to gain to confront the cop wannabe. Zimmerman provoked the situation, it's very obvious and it's no surprise that a group of 6 mostly white jurors who probably can't find their state on a map decided against the black dude. Racism is alive and well in the great USA.

The cops told Zimmerman to stop and he did, he was heading back to his truck. In a legal sense the encounter was over.

Martin might not have had anything to gain, but he did confront Zimmerman, he did basically beat on him. At this point after Zimmerman had broken off, its considered that Martin became the aggressor in the conflict.


And of course you cry racism in the jury. Please show me where there was no choice for the Jury to convict, or don't you have a clue about reasonable doubt?

Nothing that you've said is true.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Whatever happened between Zimmerman and Martin will never truly be known. Based off what the prosecution presented they had no shot to get a murder conviction. Had they been pursuing manslaughter the entire time they might have a better chance but still probably not. Zimmerman still gets punished in that his life is going to be difficult going forward. Ironically he might need to go hoodie up everywhere he goes to not get recognized.

Yup to me, the defense did a very good job. The prosecution did a pretty poor job. The jury did the right job.

I was talking to a friend on line and he mentioned that double jeopardy dosen't apply if Zimmerman gets charged on a federal level for some reason.

I doubt it will happen, but then again you never know.

[WhiteTiger]

Originally Posted by Maritime Q-Scout

I don't believe this is racism, if anything it's ageism. The fact Martin was an unknown teenager appears to have played a greater role in Zimmerman's thinking than Martin's race.

I'm not even sure it's that. If I see someone who's 6', my first thought isn't "teenager". I suspect it was the "unknown" that played the largest part.

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Element55

I kind of giggle a little bit when people bring up racism when talking about this trial and what happened / the facts shown.

Racism played no part in this whole situation. The media decided to add racism in.

Well, you know that's maybe not entirely true. The star witness of the prosecution made it very clear that Trayvon at the very least had said derogatory comments towards white people just prior to the confrontation.