Alberta Politics Thread

[Red]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

Are businesses saying they can't function?
All I'm saying is that a carbon tax increases my cost of goods, much like a fuel price increase, and so I will be increasing my retail price accordingly, much like a fuel price increase. Nothing changes for me... the customer is the one footing the bill here.

As for other businesses saying they'll pull out of their Canadian operations due to the carbon tax, well I don't believe it's because they can't function, I believe it's because after the carbon tax is introduced, they'll see better investment returns in other jurisdictions. Jurisdictions that are more tax friendly.

In the case of the Come by Chance refinery warning that it'll go under after a carbon tax is introduced (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfou...-tax-1.3900923), that is because they're in a unique situation where they cannot pass this additional cost of a carbon tax onto their customers, like most other businesses can.

"Only 10 per cent of the fuel the refinery produces is used in Newfoundland and Labrador, as most of it is exported to the United States, where the refineries it competes against don't have to pay similar costs."


That is it in a nutshell.
If the business can pass the increase in cost down to it's customers, like it does when fuel prices are high, then the business will be just fine. Customer pays the increased cost. If the business cannot pass the increase to it's customers, like it does when fuel prices are high, then a lot of businesses will struggle to swallow that cost.

I think we are not too far off in our opinions. I was mostly referring to that example of a transportation company that announced rate changes because of the CT. Just wondered if an appropriate discount was given when gasoline prices went from 1.20 to .70 I doubt it. I certainly did not see any discounts at Safeway.
Or what happens when gas goes from 84.9 to 95.9 overnight?
That's more damaging than the 4 cent the CT will add. No?

And just added about our natural gas being at an all time low etc.
Overall the gasoline and NG cost increases coming in January will not make these companie's bills higher than they were 2 years ago. So why are they announcing cost increases or shutting down?

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Red

I think we are not too far off in our opinions. I was mostly referring to that example of a transportation company that announced rate changes because of the CT. Just wondered if an appropriate discount was given when gasoline prices went from 1.20 to .70 I doubt it. I certainly did not see any discounts at Safeway.
Or what happens when gas goes from 84.9 to 95.9 overnight?
That's more damaging than the 4 cent the CT will add. No?

And just added about our natural gas being at an all time low etc.
Overall the gasoline and NG cost increases coming in January will not make these companie's bills higher than they were 2 years ago. So why are they announcing cost increases or shutting down?

Because....

- Corporate Taxes Increased
- Personal Taxes Increased
- Property Taxes Increased
- Carbon Tax was invented

Any new taxes you care to invent? Or increase some old ones?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Red

I think we are not too far off in our opinions. I was mostly referring to that example of a transportation company that announced rate changes because of the CT. Just wondered if an appropriate discount was given when gasoline prices went from 1.20 to .70 I doubt it. I certainly did not see any discounts at Safeway.

On that point, it's just good business. You charge what the market will bare to cover your costs. If your costs go down, and then market will still pay the same, there's literally zero incentive to drop the price.

If costs go up, however, and you don't have a lot of room on the price, it has to go up too.

[Jacks]

Originally Posted by Red

We also need to remember that we were in a $1 - 1.30 per L of gas for years not so long ago. We also need to remember that our natural gas cost 3 to 4 times to what it costs now a few years ago as well. So really, the utilities and gasoline costs are not any higher even with the CT applied. In fact, they are much cheaper than our 10 year average.

Difference being that when oil was at $100+ and gas was way higher we were in a thriving economy. There was plenty of business and high paying jobs going around that allowed people to not only afford high energy prices but thrive as a result of them. Today we have added costs when people are losing their jobs and companies are cutting to the bone to stay afloat.

Originally Posted by Red

Not to mention the borrowing costs are much cheaper too.

I really hate this argument, borrowing costs today don't mean diddly squat if you have no plan (or intention) to pay that debt off.

Originally Posted by Red

To me it's just whining for the sake of whining because we don't like taxes and "saving the planet" is a dirty word in this part of the country. Oversimplified, for sure, but there is a lot of that.

Problem is that we aren't "saving the planet".

[Bend it like Bourgeois]

Originally Posted by Red

We all hate new taxes, but let's look at the whole picture here, there should be no hikes in food prices etc. It's not like food got cheaper when heating and transportation costs plunged. Not to mention the borrowing costs are much cheaper too. I get it, businesses need to make money, but they are not going to be any worse off than in many times in the last decade or two. They should not be crying.

Don't feel sorry for the business, feel sorry for the people who used to work there.

Lots of small businesses are emotional, not rational, and some tire of being kicked in the stones and just close. Maybe they would stay open if the costs were market driven and they thought the future will be different. Either way, their employees are out of work.

Businesses that are more rational and can stay open (the majority) pass on the extra costs. Just as they would any market driven cost. A fuel charge if they can, higher prices where they can, and reducing costs if they have to.

There's a largish retail operation in Alberta that is looking at 5-10m in extra costs for the AB government policies. It'll cost them 500k just to administer the carbon tax for example. No way their leadership just eats 5-10m. It'll come out of labour. Fewer jobs, fewer hours, fewer benefits. And they'll raise prices on top of that because their job is to grow their bottom line not cry when it shrinks.

There's a smaller operation i know that has canned a few jobs, bought some new equipment and reduced front line hours, implemented split shifts so they can shave more hours, and eliminated benefits entirely. The owners will make slightly less than before but they'll be fine.

I think people (not meaning you specifically) get hung up trying to win a grade school economics debate and forget that for the people out of a job it's not academic. For hundreds or maybe thousands of albertans it's not a 1% decrease in profits it's a 30% or 100% decrease in wages. Rebate cheques and vague ideas of investing in clean jobs won't help them a bit.

At a time when the economy is already hurting it's just bad policy.

[belsarius]

Gas just jumped to over $1/L in Edmonton. Better send out some letters for additional charges.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Locke

Because....

- Corporate Taxes Increased
- Personal Taxes Increased
- Property Taxes Increased
- Carbon Tax was invented

Any new taxes you care to invent? Or increase some old ones?

Also, business has dramatically decreased. I think some people would be pretty shocked if they knew just how many fewer trucks are on the road compared to just 18 months ago.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Locke

Because....

- Corporate Taxes Increased
- Personal Taxes Increased
- Property Taxes Increased
- Carbon Tax was invented

Any new taxes you care to invent? Or increase some old ones?

Stay on topic...we are crying over CT ruining businesses.

[Red]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

Don't feel sorry for the business, feel sorry for the people who used to work there.

Lots of small businesses are emotional, not rational, and some tire of being kicked in the stones and just close. Maybe they would stay open if the costs were market driven and they thought the future will be different. Either way, their employees are out of work.

Businesses that are more rational and can stay open (the majority) pass on the extra costs. Just as they would any market driven cost. A fuel charge if they can, higher prices where they can, and reducing costs if they have to.

There's a largish retail operation in Alberta that is looking at 5-10m in extra costs for the AB government policies. It'll cost them 500k just to administer the carbon tax for example. No way their leadership just eats 5-10m. It'll come out of labour. Fewer jobs, fewer hours, fewer benefits. And they'll raise prices on top of that because their job is to grow their bottom line not cry when it shrinks.

There's a smaller operation i know that has canned a few jobs, bought some new equipment and reduced front line hours, implemented split shifts so they can shave more hours, and eliminated benefits entirely. The owners will make slightly less than before but they'll be fine.

I think people (not meaning you specifically) get hung up trying to win a grade school economics debate and forget that for the people out of a job it's not academic. For hundreds or maybe thousands of albertans it's not a 1% decrease in profits it's a 30% or 100% decrease in wages. Rebate cheques and vague ideas of investing in clean jobs won't help them a bit.

At a time when the economy is already hurting it's just bad policy.

I never said I supported the CT.

Just pointing out that the hysteria over how it will ruin everything is hypocrisy in light what the PCs did right before the election.

[transplant99]

Originally Posted by Red

Fuel costs have been fluctuating all the time. Just few days ago gas went up by 12 cents, 3x the rate of the CT.
This has nothing to do with transparency. Airlines and others add fuel surcharges at times of extreme cost increases. 4 cents a litre increase in times where were see 10 cent fluctuations daily is nothing. It's an excuse to gauge.

Today gas is 95c. Next month it may be 75c + 4 for the CT. Who is better off?

Wonder if similar announcement went out when gas prices dropped to 70c some months ago....would be shocked if there was one or a discount in prices.

This isnt a fluctuation...this is a permanent fixed increase.

This is a grab from every single drop of fuel people, businesses, cities, etc...put in their vehicles and heat their homes, schools, businesses with.

This, in turn, WILL increase prices everywhere.

Commodity fluctuation has nothing to do with this ill-timed and short-sighted, economy hurting tax.

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Red

I never said I supported the CT.



Just pointing out that the hysteria over how it will ruin everything is hypocrisy in light what the PCs did right before the election.

Well the PCs suck too.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by Locke

Because....

- Corporate Taxes Increased
- Personal Taxes Increased
- Property Taxes Increased
- Carbon Tax was invented

Any new taxes you care to invent? Or increase some old ones?

And yet Alberta still has the lowest corporate and personal tax burden in the entire country.

SOURCE: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...erta-1.3562716

The hyperbole in this thread is comical.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Makarov

And yet Alberta still has the lowest corporate and personal tax burden in the entire country.

SOURCE: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...erta-1.3562716

The hyperbole in this thread is comical.

I don't know if that's relevant, considering provinces like Manitoba and Ontario and Quebec etc have been badly mismanaged by their respective governments.

[cal_guy]

Originally Posted by Bend it like Bourgeois

Don't feel sorry for the business, feel sorry for the people who used to work there.

Lots of small businesses are emotional, not rational, and some tire of being kicked in the stones and just close. Maybe they would stay open if the costs were market driven and they thought the future will be different. Either way, their employees are out of work.

Businesses that are more rational and can stay open (the majority) pass on the extra costs. Just as they would any market driven cost. A fuel charge if they can, higher prices where they can, and reducing costs if they have to.

There's a largish retail operation in Alberta that is looking at 5-10m in extra costs for the AB government policies. It'll cost them 500k just to administer the carbon tax for example. No way their leadership just eats 5-10m. It'll come out of labour. Fewer jobs, fewer hours, fewer benefits. And they'll raise prices on top of that because their job is to grow their bottom line not cry when it shrinks.

What administration costs are you talking about. There's no way that an retail operation has a facility that emits more than 100,000 tonne of CO2e which would require emissions monitoring, and if did have a facility that emitted more than 100,000 tonne of CO2e they would already be paying the costs under the SGER.

[GaiJin]

Originally Posted by Makarov

And yet Alberta still has the lowest corporate and personal tax burden in the entire country.

SOURCE: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...erta-1.3562716

The hyperbole in this thread is comical.

Love this logic, we're a train wreck, but it's not as bad as the other train wrecks so keep on wrecking.
This thread should be renamed ground hog day.

[DiracSpike]

If you enjoy comical hyperbole you should check out the Trump thread.

Most people here are just pointing out the issues with this economy-hurting tax.

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Makarov

And yet Alberta still has the lowest corporate and personal tax burden in the entire country.

SOURCE: http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/calgar...erta-1.3562716

The hyperbole in this thread is comical.

A lot of what is talked about here is concerned with international competition so it's not at all hyperbole to call that into question.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by GaiJin

Love this logic, we're a train wreck, but it's not as bad as the other train wrecks so keep on wrecking.
This thread should be renamed ground hog day.

So every other province in Canada is a trainwreck. And presumably every country in Europe. And most, if not all the states in the U.S.

Alberta - that last free, good place on earth.

When are people in this province going to wake up to the fact that the energy industry gravy train is over? Not just in the private sector, but in the massive subsidy it pumped into our public services? Taxes and spending will have to come into alignment. And the gulf between the two is so huge that taxes will have to go up substantially and spending will have to come down substantially for the two to meet.

[iggy_oi]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I don't know if that's relevant, considering provinces like Manitoba and Ontario and Quebec etc have been badly mismanaged by their respective governments.

If we hadn't been so poorly mismanaged for decades prior to the NDP taking over we probably would be in better shape than we are right now.

"Hey things are booming and everything's going good, think we should try to diversify our economy so we're not left high and dry if and when the price of oil dips?...again"

"Get out!"

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by OMG!WTF!

A lot of what is talked about here is concerned with international competition so it's not at all hyperbole to call that into question.

In terms of international competition for quality of life, I'd say that Alberta and the rest of Canada are, you know, pretty much the best in the entire world.