[Trade] Flames acquire Mike Smith (25% retained) for Chad Johnson, Brandon Hickey, & cond 3rd

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Pinder just had some guy on from In Goal Magazine. He seemed very complimentary of Sigalet and especially Zulianello (our minor league goalie coach). Said Zulianello was in demand when we got him and he was a big part of Matt Murray's development. Thought it was interesting given the prevailing fan sentiment that our goalie coach sucks.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

No you are not. Most people were totally on board with brining Elliott back after his play got he team into the playoffs and it's only the last three games of the season that brought out this revisionist history by many that he was terrible all season. It's crazy how fans are dismissing Elliott's 10 game streak while lauding Johnson for his 6 game streak. Winning streaks are typically a combination of solid team play from the goaltending out as well as some fortunate breaks. Elliott finished the season with a better GAA and SV% than Johnson and that's despite digging a deep hole early in the season. Also lets not forget the Flames record winning streak came to an end with Johnson in net where he was truly horrific against the Bruins. Another note that fans conveniently forget is that Johnson didn't win a game in net for the Flames after February 24 and the Flames big second half of the season was pretty well all on Elliott's back.

Now I'm not going to say I wanted Elliott back or anything but it's clear that many Flames fans gone way overboard about Elliott based on three playoff games. He was one the team's best players in the 2nd half of the season and a reason they made the playoffs in the first place. I'm hoping Smith will not have the poor start that Elliott did last year but if he has a season of play as good as Elliott in 2nd half of this season, the Flames will be in a very good place.

This is correct, all of it, especially the bolded. Unfortunately, Elliott's bad games are the more memorable because they happened at the beginning (and against the Oilers) and at the end (in the POs, against the Ducks).

Elliott on balance for the season, gave solid goaltending - better than Johnson overall. I don't want him back, not because he was a terrible goalie (he wasn't) but because the PO exit created too much baggage. And maybe because the beginning and end of his season speaks to his pressure game.

I'm OK with Smith and either Rittich or a cheaper NHL backup that costs no more assets to acquire.

[IgiTang]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Pinder just had some guy on from In Goal Magazine. He seemed very complimentary of Sigalet and especially Zulianello (our minor league goalie coach). Said Zulianello was in demand when we got him and he was a big part of Matt Murray's development. Thought it was interesting given the prevailing fan sentiment that our goalie coach sucks.

Zullianello may have done a fine job, and certainly did with Murray if he had a big influence in Murray's development. But it could be argued that Murray developed the way he did inspite of Zullianello.
Has Z had an influence on any other NHL goalies which led to them becoming a success in their young career? I mean, Murray is extraordinary and one could argue there hasn't been a goalie of his ilk with such playoff success since Patrick Roy. Tough to mishandle a player of that caliber.

When it comes to Sigalet, he has had an influence on many goalies playing for the Flames and the results are not good. How much of that is due to the goalie and their mental toughness and natural ability? Not sure, but you know what they say about a broken clock.

It appears Sigalet will get another chance with two new goalies, if it doesn't workout, is it just because they were the wrong goalies again?

Imo, it's time for a new approach with our goalie development and mentoring, especially with the big club.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

This is simply not true. He has been a legitimate #1 for years, was on the last Olympic team, and has been with the same team for the last 6 years (2 teams in 10 years).

Also, the idea that the current prospects won't develop because the team hasn't developed a goalie in the past, is some seriously flawed logic.

Sure, a legitimate number 1 for one of the worst franchises in the league, in one of the worst markets in pro sports.....that sure goes a long way when there's zero pressure to win and games mean zilch from November on almost every year. Bet the farm on that all you want but I'm not going to presume Smith is going to stroll into a pressure cooker and be a huge upgrade on the situation that was in play last year until he's played 25-30 games. Perhaps 'journeyman' was the wrong choice of words but lets not pretend Smith is or was ever an elite starter.

The idea of presuming one of the current Flames goalie prospects is going to breakthrough isn't a stretch but anyone coming out and saying with any degree of certainty that the Franchise is going to be developing one of them by the time Smith is done is taking a massive leap of faith considering the lengthy track record of futility at doing so.

[Locke]

I wouldnt consider last season of Elliott being terrible revisionist history at all, he had his moment as did Johnson.

I think Johnson overall was better in that he did his job, he came in and won some games when the starter was struggling. Nothing fantastic but he did the job of a journeyman backup and arguably saved our season.

If Johnson had come in while Elliott was struggling and also been terrible then we were sunk. But he did what he was expected to do.

Elliott on the other hand was terrible.

As an NHL Starter your baseline should be: "Good"

Make the saves you're expected to make and occasionally be awesome.

Elliot was either awesome or absolutely terrible and thats too wide a swing for an NHL starting goalie, so that tells us, and management, that Brian Elliott is not an NHL starting goalie.

You cant survive in this league with a goalie that costs you more games than he steals.

That video that flash posted? That doesnt go in on an NHL goalie.

So we move along. We tried the Brian Elliott experiment and it failed, he has proved throughout his career that for stretches he can be outstanding and for others he can be lights out terrible.

And thats not what we need, so we part ways and try again.

A couple of those Elliott 'highlights' likely cost Brian a lot of money...

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

No you are not. Most people were totally on board with brining Elliott back after his play got he team into the playoffs and it's only the last three games of the season that brought out this revisionist history by many that he was terrible all season. It's crazy how fans are dismissing Elliott's 10 game streak while lauding Johnson for his 6 game streak. Winning streaks are typically a combination of solid team play from the goaltending out as well as some fortunate breaks. Elliott finished the season with a better GAA and SV% than Johnson and that's despite digging a deep hole early in the season. Also lets not forget the Flames record winning streak came to an end with Johnson in net where he was truly horrific against the Bruins. Another note that fans conveniently forget is that Johnson didn't win a game in net for the Flames after February 24 and the Flames big second half of the season was pretty well all on Elliott's back.

Now I'm not going to say I wanted Elliott back or anything but it's clear that many Flames fans gone way overboard about Elliott based on three playoff games. He was one the team's best players in the 2nd half of the season and a reason they made the playoffs in the first place. I'm hoping Smith will not have the poor start that Elliott did last year but if he has a season of play as good as Elliott in 2nd half of this season, the Flames will be in a very good place.

I can only go by my own opinions and hate when a trend or thought is ascribed to the entire board.

To make sure I wasn't taking crazy pills, I did a search for my posts about elliott over the course of last season.

Originally Posted by Flash Walken

I feel like Brodie and Elliott are having the same kind of season.

There's nothing to do but wait it out I think.

[Hot_Flatus]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

It's been stop gap after stop gap since Kipper retired. Given Smith's age I don't think anyone is under the impression that he's anything but a stop gap. Given the circumstances though I don't know what else Treliving could do. He did try to get Murray from the Penguins when he was in the AHL before he became a big name so he at least has a good read on goaltenders. If the it was between the Oilers and Flames for Talbot that Sather would have ensured the Oilers got him. MAF doesn't want to play for the Flames. Should he have tried harder to get Darling? Maybe. Grubauer or Raanta IMO were boom/bust in that if they couldn't handle the starting job it may sink next season so there were risks no matter what.

The team really has to ensure that Gillies or Parsons is on the roster next season as backup as they need to move forward with their own drafted/developed guys as even after Smith the team likely will have to sign/trade for a 1A/1B type of goaltender to compete with a goaltender from within for the starting job.

At this point the best play would have been to go all in on a guy like Schnieder or Raanta imho. Guys that have started a number of games and need a change of scenery or legitimate chance to shine. You keep giving up mid range assets to land marginal "hopeful" starter solutions and it adds up to a much larger investment and worst of all, lost opportunities.

If even one of Rittich, Parsons or Gillies evolves into solid 1B material I would consider it a huge win for the organization at this point. I'm not so sure the organization has the time or patience to see this through considering the team's current window is now open.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

At this point the best play would have been to go all in on a guy like Schnieder or Raanta imho. Guys that have started a number of games and need a change of scenery or legitimate chance to shine. You keep giving up mid range assets to land marginal "hopeful" starter solutions and it adds up to a much larger investment and worst of all, lost opportunities.

If even one of Rittich, Parsons or Gillies evolves into solid 1B material I would consider it a huge win for the organization at this point. I'm not so sure the organization has the time or patience to see this through considering the team's current window is now open.

What's going "all in" (considering that Schnieder would be worth way more because he's already an established starter)? Schneider costs a really good player IMO.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Hot_Flatus

No matter what way you spin it, Smith is still a stop gap solution for the Flames. I have trouble calling that full measure. The window is now open for this team to start competing with the heavyweights in the conference and you can't do it with a continuous revolving door in the crease...

Sure you can. The Blackhawks did it for years before settling in Corey Crawford.

But I think "success" in this context needs to be measured against realistic expectations. The Flames are getting closer, but are not quite entering their window to win a championship. I expect they could win a few playoff rounds in the next two years, and if Smith provides that for them, then this is a good deal.

[Phaneufenstein]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Pinder just had some guy on from In Goal Magazine. He seemed very complimentary of Sigalet and especially Zulianello (our minor league goalie coach). Said Zulianello was in demand when we got him and he was a big part of Matt Murray's development. Thought it was interesting given the prevailing fan sentiment that our goalie coach sucks.

The guy being interviewed also mentioned that he basically doesn't agree with Treliving's assessment of Smith's "low odometer" because his hips aren't in the best shape and that can lead to other injuries.

I like the acquisition and price, but the wild card here is can Smith stay healthy.

[Toonage]

Also worth noting. Yesterday during an interview with Tim & Sid, Mike Smith admitted he cannot dunk a basketball.

Think we were sold a bill of goods here.

[Strange Brew]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

Sure you can. The Blackhawks did it for years before settling in Corey Crawford.

But I think "success" in this context needs to be measured against realistic expectations. The Flames are getting closer, but are not quite entering their window to win a championship. I expect they could win a few playoff rounds in the next two years, and if Smith provides that for them, then this is a good deal.

I don't really remember the Blackhawks situation pre Crawford. Were they trading draft picks for the interim solutions?

It's a reasonable comparison if you believe the Flames are building a comparable team.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

...The team really has to ensure that Gillies or Parsons is on the roster next season as backup as they need to move forward with their own drafted/developed guys as even after Smith the team likely will have to sign/trade for a 1A/1B type of goaltender to compete with a goaltender from within for the starting job.

I agree with everything in your post except for this. Gillies is still only 23-years-old, and has effectively played only one full season of professional hockey. In his starts this year he still looks very raw, and not nearly ready yet for a block of NHL games. Parsons has not even turned 20, and he has never played pro. In a day and age when most NHL goalies do not emerge until they are around 25-years-old there is still at least a year and probably two for Gillies to establish himself.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Phaneufenstein

The guy being interviewed also mentioned that he basically doesn't agree with Treliving's assessment of Smith's "low odometer" because his hips aren't in the best shape and that can lead to other injuries.



I like the acquisition and price, but the wild card here is can Smith stay healthy.

Yeah, I thought the low odometer comment was pure propaganda. My biggest concern is still Smith's age and health.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don't really remember the Blackhawks situation pre Crawford. Were they trading draft picks for the interim solutions?



It's a reasonable comparison if you believe the Flames are building a comparable team.

I was only pointing to the fact that teams can actually succeed with a rotation of starting goalies, and I don't think acquisition cost is relevant to that point. I realize that you are fixated on draft picks that are spent every year, but there comes a point where the value of the asset outweighs the <20% chance to draft a NHL player. I would argue that the accumulation of picks is not as important at this stage of their cycle as it was three years ago.

In any event—and as I have pointed out to you several times previously now—a more permanent solution in goal over the past two years would have cost Hamilton, Tkachuk or probably both. That is not a price I would be prepared to pay, and it would seem that neither is Treliving. He is trying to build a complete team, not just resolve goaltending.

[Flash Walken]

Originally Posted by Strange Brew

I don't really remember the Blackhawks situation pre Crawford. Were they trading draft picks for the interim solutions?

No they didn't. Obviously they are in a different situations when it comes to attracting free agents, but they didn't spend much in the way of acquisition cost to get their goalies, they often simply paid through the nose for them in terms of salary.

Huet signed as a free agent.

Signed Niemi as a free agent.

Signed Khabibulin as a free agent.

Signed Turco as a Free Agent.

Drafted Corey Crawford.

[CaptainCrunch]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Also worth noting. Yesterday during an interview with Tim & Sid, Mike Smith admitted he cannot dunk a basketball.

Think we were sold a bill of goods here.

[Rick M.]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Also worth noting. Yesterday during an interview with Tim & Sid, Mike Smith admitted he cannot dunk a basketball.

Think we were sold a bill of goods here.

The horror!

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Toonage

Also worth noting. Yesterday during an interview with Tim & Sid, Mike Smith admitted he cannot dunk a basketball.

Think we were sold a bill of goods here.

On skates or off? Because dunking a basketball on skates is a seriously rare skill.

If its off then we have genuine cause for concern.

[Toonage]

What else were we lied to about? Is Mike Smith his real name? Sounds made up.