It's still illegal to sell drugs on the street in B.C. Personal use is the only thing that's been decriminalized.
The RCMP is Helen Lovejoying the #### out of this because police love the easy arrests that addicts provide them. Is it bad that safe supply drugs are finding their way into the hands of street dealers? Sure. It's also still better if safe, clean drugs are being sold on the street vs. fentanyl-laced drugs.
I can guarantee you that police do not love let alone enjoy or are indifferent to arresting drug addicts. For what? So you can risk getting stuck with a needle? So you can worry endlessly that the addict you lodged in cells may have smuggled in more drugs and could possibly OD resulting in a police watchdog investigation, coroners inquest, civil or criminal charges? Absolutely patently false. The overwhelming majority of police view this as a public health crisis and want next to nothing to do with it beyond assisting local health authorities.
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I can guarantee you that police do not love let alone enjoy or are indifferent to arresting drug addicts. For what? So you can risk getting stuck with a needle? So you can worry endlessly that the addict you lodged in cells may have smuggled in more drugs and could possibly OD resulting in a police watchdog investigation, coroners inquest, civil or criminal charges? Absolutely patently false. The overwhelming majority of police view this as a public health crisis and want next to nothing to do with it beyond assisting local health authorities.
Yeah, that was probably one of the most divorced-from-reality takes I've read on that particular subject. I have friends in both CPS and WPS, your post tracks with everything they seem to say on the matter.
Portugal does a lot of good things. However there is enough research now that shows that compelling people to enter treatment doesn't really work in terms of treating addiction. Furthermore, B.C. has a massive problem with unregulated substance use treatment facilities (thanks, BC Liberals!), which often scam addicts out of their various benefits (e.g. welfare, EI, etc.). The unregulated facilities that aren't scams often offer programs that aren't evidence-based and are usually lacking adequate facilities and staffing. (Source: I work directly in this industry)
There are private, licensed operators and centres operated by the various health authorities, which are subject to regulations and usually provide better treatment than the unregulated providers. However, the licensed operators are often not affordable and the HA centres have a very limited number of beds. There are also significant wait times to get into these facilities.
If we want to start compelling people to go to treatment, there needs to be better infrastructure in place. Wouldn't you agree that until that infrastructure is in place, we need harm reduction strategies such as safe supply to keep people from dying.
See above. Additionally there are not enough safe-consumption sites in the province to support this requirement.
It's pretty contradictory to state that dealers are acquiring safe supply drugs to resell them AND that there is not significant demand for safe supply drugs.
Rube, what evidence do you have that shows compelling people to treatment doesn’t work? If the metric used is that it’s not 100% effective than obviously. People need to stop looking for a panacea and start looking at the most realistic option. The current model being utilized (especially in BC with decrim) has been a colossal failure, resulting in MORE overdoses and MORE deaths. But what changes? Instead of circling back and reviewing their policies, the chief medical officer and chief coroner insist that “safe supply” is the answer. Addicts seek out fentanyl, full stop. Why? Because heroin doesn’t match the high of fent.
The people making these policy decisions are academics who are creating policy on theory vs lived experience. Even addictions nurses I’ve worked with in the past are completely naive. Several of them told me that it was so great that they had solved the addiction problem because they provided a safe consumption site and that after an addict used, they were good for the day. I had to break the news that several hours adter they used, they then used again in a friends basement, or again in an alley, or again in a shelter.
Create government run treatment facilities that are voluntary (choose this or choose jail). Provide detox, provide education, provide half way houses that are not contracted out, they are run by corrections. Maybe it only achieves 30% success rate but I’d take that over the current situation any day.
Also deal with the root cause, beef up customs to intercept fentanyl imports. Create a national ports police and hand down substantial sentences for opioid traffickers/importers.
No one in government is taking this seriously. Sometimes decisions need to be made for people who can’t or won’t make them for themselves. Especially those decisions that impact the lives of the average citizen who doesn’t deserve to have their property stolen or be accosted near a bus stop or a park. The real crime is allowing people to waste away on the streets and enabling their addiction.
Rube, what evidence do you have that shows compelling people to treatment doesn’t work? If the metric used is that it’s not 100% effective than obviously. People need to stop looking for a panacea and start looking at the most realistic option. The current model being utilized (especially in BC with decrim) has been a colossal failure, resulting in MORE overdoses and MORE deaths. But what changes? Instead of circling back and reviewing their policies, the chief medical officer and chief coroner insist that “safe supply” is the answer. Addicts seek out fentanyl, full stop. Why? Because heroin doesn’t match the high of fent.
The people making these policy decisions are academics who are creating policy on theory vs lived experience. Even addictions nurses I’ve worked with in the past are completely naive. Several of them told me that it was so great that they had solved the addiction problem because they provided a safe consumption site and that after an addict used, they were good for the day. I had to break the news that several hours adter they used, they then used again in a friends basement, or again in an alley, or again in a shelter.
Create government run treatment facilities that are voluntary (choose this or choose jail). Provide detox, provide education, provide half way houses that are not contracted out, they are run by corrections. Maybe it only achieves 30% success rate but I’d take that over the current situation any day.
Also deal with the root cause, beef up customs to intercept fentanyl imports. Create a national ports police and hand down substantial sentences for opioid traffickers/importers.
No one in government is taking this seriously. Sometimes decisions need to be made for people who can’t or won’t make them for themselves. Especially those decisions that impact the lives of the average citizen who doesn’t deserve to have their property stolen or be accosted near a bus stop or a park. The real crime is allowing people to waste away on the streets and enabling their addiction.
We don't have any ability to stop drugs due to the increased strength of fenty, that is the whole point of it, it comes in incredibly small easy to hide packets and is cheap to make and buy at wholesale, you get it mailed from China, India or Mexico and it hides in the ocean of millions of packages due to the globalization of trade, my guess is I alone, as does everyone else on this site, gets 3 or 4 packages from outside Canada a month, there is no way to stop it not due to the scale of drug use but due to the scale of packages arriving every day, the drug trade relies on thousands of packages arriving every day, some get caught, most get through
We don't have any ability to stop drugs due to the increased strength of fenty, that is the whole point of it, it comes in incredibly small easy to hide packets and is cheap to make and buy at wholesale, you get it mailed from China, India or Mexico and it hides in the ocean of millions of packages due to the globalization of trade, my guess is I alone, as does everyone else on this site, gets 3 or 4 packages from outside Canada a month, there is no way to stop it not due to the scale of drug use but due to the scale of packages arriving every day, the drug trade relies on thousands of packages arriving every day, some get caught, most get through
You’re correct, you’ll never stop it, but you can make it more difficult. It’s a national embarrassment that you can simply import an envelope of fent in and it’s no problem. So again, create ports police, beef up CBSA with sniffer dogs at every port and Canada post facility importing foreign packages (major airports such as Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal etc).
Enforcement in conjunction with rehabilitation, deterrence and education.
Also time to squeeze nations that promote/permit narco terrorism by way of sanctions or whatever means necessary.
You’re correct, you’ll never stop it, but you can make it more difficult. It’s a national embarrassment that you can simply import an envelope of fent in and it’s no problem. So again, create ports police, beef up CBSA with sniffer dogs at every port and Canada post facility importing foreign packages (major airports such as Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal etc).
Enforcement in conjunction with rehabilitation, deterrence and education.
Also time to squeeze nations that promote/permit narco terrorism by way of sanctions or whatever means necessary.
the trouble is the expense of the vast army of customs agents, you'd be looking at easily the largest most expensive department in the Feds in order to make a dent, coupled with the economic damage done to the country by holding everything up by days in order to check everything, the reality is no one would stand for a 10 or 15% tax increase and a loss of 2 or 3% in the economy to come up with a policy that would only work for a year or two before the criminal system adapted.
Sadly due to globalization there is literally nothing we can do, the shear volume of packages makes it impossible
Watched the video below from CBC this morning that covers the opioid crisis in Belleville, ON, a city of only 50.000 people. A lot of the shots in the video reminded me a ton of downtown Vancouver these days. Very sad how these drugs change cities.
Last edited by activeStick; 03-09-2024 at 04:30 PM.
the trouble is the expense of the vast army of customs agents, you'd be looking at easily the largest most expensive department in the Feds in order to make a dent, coupled with the economic damage done to the country by holding everything up by days in order to check everything, the reality is no one would stand for a 10 or 15% tax increase and a loss of 2 or 3% in the economy to come up with a policy that would only work for a year or two before the criminal system adapted.
Sadly due to globalization there is literally nothing we can do, the shear volume of packages makes it impossible
I hate the concept of the 'War on Drugs because its proven to be futile.
I dont think we should lock people up in jail.
But goddamn. We need a solution. Fentanyl is terrifying s###.
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my guess is the answer comes with better drugs, there are limited stories coming in of Ozempic reducing peoples desire to drink and curing alcoholism, my guess is the answer lies with letting go of moral judgement and finding ways to suppress addictive cycles chemically
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You’re correct, you’ll never stop it, but you can make it more difficult. It’s a national embarrassment that you can simply import an envelope of fent in and it’s no problem. So again, create ports police, beef up CBSA with sniffer dogs at every port and Canada post facility importing foreign packages (major airports such as Vancouver, Calgary, Toronto, Montreal etc).
Enforcement in conjunction with rehabilitation, deterrence and education.
Also time to squeeze nations that promote/permit narco terrorism by way of sanctions or whatever means necessary.
Naw. It's tiny and dirt cheap to produce. Unlike heroin, where you need to bring in bricks that are produced using fields of actual poppy plants, fentanyl can be made in mass in labs with a few ingredients. A packet the size of a single pressed pill can supply hundreds of doses. You can order it on the dark web anonymously. No drug rings to even break up.
You could stop some of it, but people will just order more.
Naw. It's tiny and dirt cheap to produce. Unlike heroin, where you need to bring in bricks that are produced using fields of actual poppy plants, fentanyl can be made in mass in labs with a few ingredients. A packet the size of a single pressed pill can supply hundreds of doses. You can order it on the dark web anonymously. No drug rings to even break up.
You could stop some of it, but people will just order more.
Can't understate how important this is, I have a couple of old foster kids in their 20's peripherally involved in dealing, they aren't connected to any gangs either as members or as customers, they are in small wholly independent almost co operatives of dealers, there's no network for the cops to infiltrate or informers to grass up, its just 6 or 7 guys buying and selling online, the only tough part is sourcing mailing addresses to get the gear sent to, it's also why the product is so dangerous, they are mixing tiny amounts of fenty into a pound of baby formula or milk sugar or the like with a spoon and hoping it mixes evenly, which it never does
my guess is the answer comes with better drugs, there are limited stories coming in of Ozempic reducing peoples desire to drink and curing alcoholism, my guess is the answer lies with letting go of moral judgement and finding ways to suppress addictive cycles chemically
I always thought there was was merit for scientific research into developing safer recreational drugs or just drugs that make people temporarily feel good, without the danger and physical harm, or chemical dependency. It's such a taboo thing in mainstream western medicine, but I think it would be good thing to put resources into it. There is such a moral stigma about people wanting to feel high after a tough day, or trip balls for fun.
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I always thought there was was merit for scientific research into developing safer recreational drugs or just drugs that make people temporarily feel good, without the danger and physical harm, or chemical dependency. It's such a taboo thing in mainstream western medicine, but I think it would be good thing to put resources into it. There is such a moral stigma about people wanting to feel high after a tough day, or trip balls for fun.
Is there? Alcohol use is socially acceptable. Pot no longer carries a social stigma. Caffeine is a widely used stimulant. Canada in 2024 is among the most tolerant societies towards intoxication in history.
The problem is that the drugs we’re talking about make people out-of-their-minds. And that’s their whole appeal. How do you legally develop and test drugs that even in small doses get you so wasted that you’re a threat to the safety of yourself and others? And as we’ve seen, if we provide drugs that offer 70 per cent as intoxicating but far safer, they’ll be passed over for ones that get you more wasted.
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Is there? Alcohol use is socially acceptable. Pot no longer carries a social stigma. Caffeine is a widely used stimulant. Canada in 2024 is among the most tolerant societies towards intoxication in history.
The problem is that the drugs we’re talking about make people out-of-their-minds. And that’s their whole appeal. How do you legally develop and test drugs that even in small doses get you so wasted that you’re a threat to the safety of yourself and others? And as we’ve seen, if we provide drugs that offer 70 per cent as intoxicating but far safer, they’ll be passed over for ones that get you more wasted.
This I find somewhat funny.
I went to High School downtown and took the C-Train there and back every day. If I'd cracked a beer on the C-Train, or lit up a cigarette, I'd have been tackled immediately.
But now hard drugs is totally cool?
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I went to High School downtown and took the C-Train there and back every day. If I'd cracked a beer on the C-Train, or lit up a cigarette, I'd have been tackled immediately.
But now hard drugs is totally cool?
You put it very well a while ago with your comments on beer gardens. Our liquor rules are so stupid in that instead of being able to enjoy a drink the government would rather put the drinkers in a small pen together without a lot of options and they wonder why those environments get out of hand.
There is no harm in walking down 17th Ave or Prince's Island Park with a beer in hand.
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You put it very well a while ago with your comments on beer gardens. Our liquor rules are so stupid in that instead of being able to enjoy a drink the government would rather put the drinkers in a small pen together without a lot of options and they wonder why those environments get out of hand.
There is no harm in walking down 17th Ave or Prince's Island Park with a beer in hand.
Dont get me started on my 'Open Liquor laws' and 'Beer Gardens' rants. I have made it plainly clear on several occasions that I think 'Beer Gardens' are the dumbest idea any event coordinator or civic leader has ever come up with.
When I was in Paris the first time I saw an elderly lady pull a bottle of wine out of her coat while we were on the subway. Then she opened it with a corkscrew.
Then she pulled out a wine glass and poured herself one.
Not only is that entire spectacle nothing short of impressive...you know who this bothered? Nobody.
Then again...I went on a tour of London's Tube system on the weekend before they banned drinking on Public Transit and that was nothing short of a maniacal nightmare.
But thats the English for you.
__________________ The Beatings Shall Continue Until Morale Improves!
This Post Has Been Distilled for the Eradication of Seemingly Incurable Sadness.
If you are flammable and have legs, you are never blocking a Fire Exit. - Mitch Hedberg
Dont get me started on my 'Open Liquor laws' and 'Beer Gardens' rants. I have made it plainly clear on several occasions that I think 'Beer Gardens' are the dumbest idea any event coordinator or civic leader has ever come up with.
When I was in Paris the first time I saw an elderly lady pull a bottle of wine out of her coat while we were on the subway. Then she opened it with a corkscrew.
Then she pulled out a wine glass and poured herself one.
Not only is that entire spectacle nothing short of impressive...you know who this bothered? Nobody.
Then again...I went on a tour of London's Tube system on the weekend before they banned drinking on Public Transit and that was nothing short of a maniacal nightmare.
But thats the English for you.
So, was your take away that people are too easily bothered by stuff that isn’t really hurting them?
