Edmonton Christian school: LGBQT's have mental illnesses

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

So, this is patently false and your usage of passages from the Old Testament is grossly misleading at best or utterly irrelevant at worst.

In the first place, I don't presume to speak for all religions "anywhere they exist," but as a religious person I suspect I am eminently more qualified to address the supposition than are you. I was raised in a pretty conservative Evangelical household and was never led to believe by my parents, pastors or teachers that atheists were evil—at least not any more so than anyone else. In my upbringing atheists were to be pitied for having been grossly misled, and it was incumbent upon us as "believers" to enlighten atheists to the truth of the gospel and salvation. I presently do my best to teach my children that all people deserve our respect and good will regardless of their religion, culture, or rejection thereof. I don't personally know a single individual in my own vast network of practicing Christians, Jews and Muslims who would endorse any such hatred against atheists. This is a straw man and you should know better.

Second, your citation of ancient invectives utterly fails in the light of the socio-religious context of the day in which these were written. Without going into much detail, (1) "blasphemy" is NOT synonymous with "atheism"—it was the careless usage of the name of a deity in a culture that subscribed supernatural significance to the act of "naming." (2) The rejection of a verdict pronounced by a judge or a priest is actually a piece of primitive civil legislation with an unfortunately barbaric consequence. This is the antiquated equivalent to modern charges of contempt or abrogation for a governing civil or judicial authority and again, it has nothing to do with atheism. (3) The third passage is most absurd, since it is an invective precisely against something exclusively religious (performing a cultic act on behalf of another god than YHWH) which presumes theism—NOT atheism.

Yes. It is true that religion inflames tribalistic instincts that threaten our peaceful coexistence as a species, but you are only exacerbating the problem with your tired, ignorant, drive-by straw-man depictions of "religion."

Am I the only one that thinks that, in general, Christianity would be upgraded if it dropped the Old Testament? It seems like the Bronze Age ideas it espouses are where the VAST majority of socially troubling behaviours originate from. If everyone just took the New Testament as the only lessons that matter I think Christians would be MUCH more chill.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Am I the only one that thinks that, in general, Christianity would be upgraded if it dropped the Old Testament? It seems like the Bronze Age ideas it espouses are where the VAST majority of socially troubling behaviours originate from. If everyone just took the New Testament as the only lessons that matter I think Christians would be MUCH more chill.

It is much simpler than that. Dropping the bizarre commitment to biblical inerrancy would be a good start. The texts themselves are not really the problem. The problem is with the idea that the Bible is somehow a magical book of divine mandates.

[Cheese]

So, this is patently false and your usage of passages from the Old Testament is grossly misleading at best or utterly irrelevant at worst.

In the first place, I don't presume to speak for all religions "anywhere they exist," but as a religious person I suspect I am eminently more qualified to address the supposition than are you. I was raised in a pretty conservative Evangelical household and was never led to believe by my parents, pastors or teachers that atheists were evil—at least not any more so than anyone else. In my upbringing atheists were to be pitied for having been grossly misled, and it was incumbent upon us as "believers" to enlighten atheists to the truth of the gospel and salvation. I presently do my best to teach my children that all people deserve our respect and good will regardless of their religion, culture, or rejection thereof. I don't personally know a single individual in my own vast network of practicing Christians, Jews and Muslims who would endorse any such hatred against atheists. This is a straw man and you should know better.

Second, your citation of ancient invectives utterly fails in the light of the socio-religious context of the day in which these were written. Without going into much detail, (1) "blasphemy" is NOT synonymous with "atheism"—it was the careless usage of the name of a deity in a culture that subscribed supernatural significance to the act of "naming." (2) The rejection of a verdict pronounced by a judge or a priest is actually a piece of primitive civil legislation with an unfortunately barbaric consequence. This is the antiquated equivalent to modern charges of contempt or abrogation for a governing civil or judicial authority and again, it has nothing to do with atheism. (3) The third passage is most absurd, since it is an invective precisely against something exclusively religious (performing a cultic act on behalf of another god than YHWH) which presumes theism—NOT atheism.

Yes. It is true that religion inflames tribalistic instincts that threaten our peaceful coexistence as a species, but you are only exacerbating the problem with your tired, ignorant, drive-by straw-man depictions of "religion."

First off thanks for the reply, apologies that you think the way I depict things is tired and ignorant, I think most atheists think the polar opposite. As you are aware I respect your education in this field, your use of the English language is a gift you should use in the same vein that Dawkins or Dennet do, it would be interesting to hear you in a debate.
You are correct, you dont speak for all religions, or most I would suspect. Being raised in Canada likely provides a softer hue in that regard due to the fact that atheists are despised pretty much wholeheartedly in large swaths of the USA and certainly overseas (Some regions of Canada I would suspect hold the same distaste). It is such a stigma that to even announce you are an atheist while running for public office is an automatic rejection of the electorate. You can call it whatever you like, but the overriding fact is that religion has played a major role in this rejection in the past, and continues the fight to this very day. Tired and ignorant indeed.
Of course this is ok among the religious, as their moral ground allows them to condemn, however the moment an atheist stands up and says, wait a minute this is BS, we are the ones that appear to be exacerbating the issue.
Frankly, it is both sad and astonishing that in the 21st century, the populace of the most advanced civilization in history can still hold such backward views.

Maybe this verse is better suited to the view of atheists by Christians

Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

[sworkhard]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Maybe this verse is better suited to the view of atheists by Christians

Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

While it is reflective of how many Christians view Atheists, Randal Rauser does a great job of reviewing this and similar statements in the Bible in his book "Is the Atheist my neighbor?".

Beyond the fact that this verse says that fools deny God, not that denying God makes you a fool, the word fool here means a corrupt and evil person. Basically it says that corrupt and evil people justify their actions by saying to themselves, "there is no God to answer to", and then follows it up by saying no such evil person does good.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Cheese

First off thanks for the reply, apologies that you think the way I depict things is tired and ignorant, I think most atheists think the polar opposite. As you are aware I respect your education in this field, your use of the English language is a gift you should use in the same vein that Dawkins or Dennet do, it would be interesting to hear you in a debate.

It would be an underwhelming performance. Teaching is fun because my audience is a captive bunch of suck ups.

You are correct, you dont speak for all religions, or most I would suspect. Being raised in Canada likely provides a softer hue in that regard due to the fact that atheists are despised pretty much wholeheartedly in large swaths of the USA and certainly overseas (Some regions of Canada I would suspect hold the same distaste). It is such a stigma that to even announce you are an atheist while running for public office is an automatic rejection of the electorate. You can call it whatever you like, but the overriding fact is that religion has played a major role in this rejection in the past, and continues the fight to this very day. Tired and ignorant indeed.

I don't deny that in general, but do you really believe the solution is to propagate stereotypes of religion in your defence? As someone who is really interested in interfaith dialogue I don't see how such responses that attempt to "flatten" the issues are remotely productive.

Of course this is ok among the religious, as their moral ground allows them to condemn, however the moment an atheist stands up and says, wait a minute this is BS, we are the ones that appear to be exacerbating the issue.
Frankly, it is both sad and astonishing that in the 21st century, the populace of the most advanced civilization in history can still hold such backward views.

You opened this point of discussion by introducing results from a Pew study which shows that the vast majority of Americans would be unhappy if a family member married an atheist. You trivialized the results by equating them to much less complex and benign social matters as political persuasion and gun ownership. Then you marshalled that data to suggest that the huge disparity is somehow indicative of a broad based "hatred" of atheism. Religion is an extremely sensitive issue that will certainly evoke strong feelings especially within family relationships, and I would argue that the results of the study you shared are primarily affected by that.

Maybe this verse is better suited to the view of atheists by Christians

Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

I had actually considered citing this verse in my last post! On the face of it it sure does appear to be a straightforward divine assertion about atheism. However, I tend to think that the writer—an Iron Age or Archaemenid Jerusalem priest who had likely never travelled more than 80 kms in any direction from his home—never even considered the possibility that gods did not exist. Why would he? Everything in his immediate experience and everyone he had ever met validated his primitive worldview. So, I rather tend to think that Ps 14:1 is not so much a criticism of "atheism" as we know it, but rather a criticism of those who ignored the abundantly obvious intervention of divine forces in the world.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by GGG

So what things do you believe that aren't grounded in fact?

hmm maybe that I think its mathematically impossible that earth is the only planet in the universe that supports life.

that's about it

[Fozzie_DeBear]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

hmm maybe that I think its mathematically impossible that earth is the only planet in the universe that supports life.

that's about it

Pretty much any leading edge scientific experiment is, by definition, a belief that something is possible that is not supported by fact.

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Pretty much any leading edge scientific experiment is, by definition, a belief that something is possible that is not supported by fact.

but, science involves experimenting, to try and prove it as fact, not just writing a story as fact and ostracizing anyone who disagrees.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by Cheese

First off thanks for the reply, apologies that you think the way I depict things is tired and ignorant, I think most atheists think the polar opposite. As you are aware I respect your education in this field, your use of the English language is a gift you should use in the same vein that Dawkins or Dennet do, it would be interesting to hear you in a debate.
You are correct, you dont speak for all religions, or most I would suspect. Being raised in Canada likely provides a softer hue in that regard due to the fact that atheists are despised pretty much wholeheartedly in large swaths of the USA and certainly overseas (Some regions of Canada I would suspect hold the same distaste). It is such a stigma that to even announce you are an atheist while running for public office is an automatic rejection of the electorate. You can call it whatever you like, but the overriding fact is that religion has played a major role in this rejection in the past, and continues the fight to this very day. Tired and ignorant indeed.
Of course this is ok among the religious, as their moral ground allows them to condemn, however the moment an atheist stands up and says, wait a minute this is BS, we are the ones that appear to be exacerbating the issue.
Frankly, it is both sad and astonishing that in the 21st century, the populace of the most advanced civilization in history can still hold such backward views.

Maybe this verse is better suited to the view of atheists by Christians

Psalms 14:1 The fool has said in his heart, There is no God. They are corrupt, they have done abominable works, there is none that does good.

Man, what's with the travesty with you and most vocal atheists online? Reading some of things you have posted reaffirms the notion that atheists were some of the first SJW's. Atheists are some of the most angry and easily triggered community on the internet.

Why is simply not believing in God enough for you? If you in fact lack belief, (if it's even possible) why does it seem to be one of the most defining principles in your life? For example, some people might believe that Taylor Swift is the best musician ever, I don't share that same belief and simply not believing is enough for me. I wouldn't constantly bring it up to everyone that will listen or throw it in the faces of her fans who believe that. You make simply not believing complicated, which suggest you might have an agenda and a belief system of your own. Are you sure you are an atheist, or are you anti-Religion?

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

Man, what's with the travesty with you and most vocal atheists online? Reading some of things you have posted reaffirms the notion that atheists were some of the first SJW's. Atheists are some of the most angry and easily triggered community on the internet.

Why is simply not believing in God enough for you? If you in fact lack belief, (if it's even possible) why does it seem to be one of the most defining principles in your life? For example, some people might believe that Taylor Swift is the best musician ever, I don't share that same belief and simply not believing is enough for me. I wouldn't constantly bring it up to everyone that will listen or throw it in the faces of her fans who believe that. You make simply not believing complicated, which suggest you might have an agenda and a belief system of your own. Are you sure you are an atheist, or are you anti-Religion?

Nobody actually believes Taylor is better than Beyoncé.

Nobody.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

Man, what's with the travesty with you and most vocal atheists online? Reading some of things you have posted reaffirms the notion that atheists were some of the first SJW's. Atheists are some of the most angry and easily triggered community on the internet.

Why is simply not believing in God enough for you? If you in fact lack belief, (if it's even possible) why does it seem to be one of the most defining principles in your life? For example, some people might believe that Taylor Swift is the best musician ever, I don't share that same belief and simply not believing is enough for me. I wouldn't constantly bring it up to everyone that will listen or throw it in the faces of her fans who believe that. You make simply not believing complicated, which suggest you might have an agenda and a belief system of your own. Are you sure you are an atheist, or are you anti-Religion?

Has a government or representative of a government agency ever deemed you mentally ill or unfit for public service because you don't believe that Taylor Swift is the best musician ever? That you are sinful, evil, unhealthy et cetera because you don't worship her album "1989"?

Kind of a different deal than the whole Taylor Swift thing. Unless of course you see your Christian faith as no more important than your taste in music.

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Has a government or representative of a government agency ever deemed you mentally ill or unfit for public service because you don't believe that Taylor Swift is the best musician ever? That you are sinful, evil, unhealthy et cetera because you don't worship her album "1989"?

Kind of a different deal than the whole Taylor Swift thing. Unless of course you see your Christian faith as no more important than your taste in music.

I wasn't aware that governments set up with the right of Religious freedom where able to discriminate like that. Where was this?

[Flames_Gimp]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

Man, what's with the travesty with you and most vocal atheists online? Reading some of things you have posted reaffirms the notion that atheists were some of the first SJW's. Atheists are some of the most angry and easily triggered community on the internet.

Why is simply not believing in God enough for you? If you in fact lack belief, (if it's even possible) why does it seem to be one of the most defining principles in your life? For example, some people might believe that Taylor Swift is the best musician ever, I don't share that same belief and simply not believing is enough for me. I wouldn't constantly bring it up to everyone that will listen or throw it in the faces of her fans who believe that. You make simply not believing complicated, which suggest you might have an agenda and a belief system of your own. Are you sure you are an atheist, or are you anti-Religion?

because the belief that a musician is good or not isn't a ridiculous fantasy..

Why is it not ok to poke fun at someone who believes there's a magic invisible man listening to your thoughts? in any other instance where someone says that is happening they would be put on pills and/or put in a hospital. But, hey, some ignorant peasant in the dark ages says it's true.

We have pocket sized super computers that can instantly send messages around the world yet we believe something written at the dawn of the shoe.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

Man, what's with the travesty with you and most vocal atheists online? Reading some of things you have posted reaffirms the notion that atheists were some of the first SJW's. Atheists are some of the most angry and easily triggered community on the internet.

Why is simply not believing in God enough for you? If you in fact lack belief, (if it's even possible) why does it seem to be one of the most defining principles in your life? For example, some people might believe that Taylor Swift is the best musician ever, I don't share that same belief and simply not believing is enough for me. I wouldn't constantly bring it up to everyone that will listen or throw it in the faces of her fans who believe that. You make simply not believing complicated, which suggest you might have an agenda and a belief system of your own. Are you sure you are an atheist, or are you anti-Religion?

You sound angry, take some deep breaths.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

In the 1970s and 1980s it was fairly common among Evangelicals to view homosexuality as a form of rebellion. It was considered a flagrant rejection of God's natural order, but as with many things within a fairly sharp apocalyptic worldview it was also easy to forgive people for being misled by dark, spiritual forces.

In the 1990s I believe there was a predominant shift in thinking among Evangelicals to treat homosexuality like a mental illness, and out of this emerged conversion therapy.

Most Evangelicals I know today are at a loss about how to reconcile primitive teachings from a handful of biblical texts with a growing recognition that sexual orientation is an unavoidable biological reality. A close pastor friend of mine recently told me that this was the next bastion of Christian theology to crumble, and it is happening quickly.

Thus lies the issue with a tome supposedly created by an omnipotent, omniscient and omnipresent god. That loss should be clearly spelled out within the good book giving everyone a direct and clear path towards the ideals that God wants us to follow. Yet with all of this angst boiling up inside those that follow, all it will take is an edict from someone in a leadership position for the followers to move in a different direction. The funny thing is with all of these changes the followers don't realize that they are in fact becoming more skeptical or possibly nihilistic.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

Man, what's with the travesty with you and most vocal atheists online? Reading some of things you have posted reaffirms the notion that atheists were some of the first SJW's. Atheists are some of the most angry and easily triggered community on the internet.

Why is simply not believing in God enough for you? If you in fact lack belief, (if it's even possible) why does it seem to be one of the most defining principles in your life? For example, some people might believe that Taylor Swift is the best musician ever, I don't share that same belief and simply not believing is enough for me. I wouldn't constantly bring it up to everyone that will listen or throw it in the faces of her fans who believe that. You make simply not believing complicated, which suggest you might have an agenda and a belief system of your own. Are you sure you are an atheist, or are you anti-Religion?

Of course we are disappointed/angry/annoyed...wouldn't you be if every time you stood up to voice your opinion someone told you to sit down, your opinion doesn't matter; all the while standing up and yelling at the rest of the world that their opinion is the only one that counts? Even worse, those same people are telling you to sit down and shut up because "their personal invisible God" has all of the answers? When we ask for proof of their God they hold out a little black book with a cross on the outside and say here....this has all the answers? LOL
For centuries atheists have been told to shut up and in many cases they have been assassinated by people who eschew an all knowing, all loving God.

So my answer to you is..we do not believe in "your God", you do not have an answer that makes logical sense as to the reality of your God and "no, your little black book is NOT the answer". So when your cult stops advertising, preying on the youth of today, and telling everyone who doesn't believe in their choice of a God that they will go to hell, we will also allow you to go on and be what you want to be. Unfortunately your God would die out if not for the indoctrination of youth...in effect doing our job for us.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Pretty much any leading edge scientific experiment is, by definition, a belief that something is possible that is not supported by fact.

Ill just leave the links here. None of the breakthroughs listed below came with a blueprint from the bible. These are all fact and at one time were experiments that were not supported by the same. Those same experiments later became fact because leading scientists used their brain and education to make it so...not a page out of the bible.

http://www.factmonster.com/ipka/A0932440.html
http://topyaps.com/top-10-amazing-di...-world-forever
http://abcnews.go.com/Health/TenWays...3605442&page=1

[DiracSpike]

I don't believe there is a God either but you guys are coming off like a bunch of dickheads. Please don't act like you've ever been persecuted for being atheists despite how smart and enlightened you try to sound on the internet no one gives a flip about what you believe. And as people aren't using their religion to shape public policy neither should you.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

It would be an underwhelming performance. Teaching is fun because my audience is a captive bunch of suck ups.


I don't deny that in general, but do you really believe the solution is to propagate stereotypes of religion in your defence? As someone who is really interested in interfaith dialogue I don't see how such responses that attempt to "flatten" the issues are remotely productive.


You opened this point of discussion by introducing results from a Pew study which shows that the vast majority of Americans would be unhappy if a family member married an atheist. You trivialized the results by equating them to much less complex and benign social matters as political persuasion and gun ownership. Then you marshalled that data to suggest that the huge disparity is somehow indicative of a broad based "hatred" of atheism. Religion is an extremely sensitive issue that will certainly evoke strong feelings especially within family relationships, and I would argue that the results of the study you shared are primarily affected by that.


I had actually considered citing this verse in my last post! On the face of it it sure does appear to be a straightforward divine assertion about atheism. However, I tend to think that the writer—an Iron Age or Archaemenid Jerusalem priest who had likely never travelled more than 80 kms in any direction from his home—never even considered the possibility that gods did not exist. Why would he? Everything in his immediate experience and everyone he had ever met validated his primitive worldview. So, I rather tend to think that Ps 14:1 is not so much a criticism of "atheism" as we know it, but rather a criticism of those who ignored the abundantly obvious intervention of divine forces in the world.

As usual I think you short sell yourself TC. Everyone is a suck up at some level.
As to the propagation theory. Interfaith dialogue "to this point in time" does not appear to have shown any progression, at least as far as I can tell. Now you could suggest that it simply needs more time, perhaps education, to help push forward those changes; and my answer is, "it might be", but how much time? It has been a few millennia in the works and we still sit on a seesaw of whose God is better or whose God has all of the answers and those atheists don't have the right to try and answer for us. There is a significant part of the population, that is growing rapidly, that finds this discourse akin to traveling on a rudderless boat?

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by DiracSpike

I don't believe there is a God either but you guys are coming off like a bunch of dickheads. Please don't act like you've ever been persecuted for being atheists despite how smart and enlightened you try to sound on the internet no one gives a flip about what you believe. And as people aren't using their religion to shape public policy neither should you.

WUT? Are you serious?