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Old 06-17-2017, 07:02 PM   #241
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Default Brandon Hickey signing watch. UPD: BU announces Hickey will captain team for 2017/18

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Hickey is dead to me. I hope his career goes down in Flames. I don't care if that makes me petty.


Well that's good that you don't care - because it does seem rather petty. Bashing/wishing for the worst as a player leaves the team is a very Oiler'ish mindset to enter.

Best of luck to Hickey going forward.

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Old 06-17-2017, 07:02 PM   #242
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I said it before and I will say it again. If you are never leaving open 6/7 spots on your roster for your drafted/developed guys this is the kind of stuff that's going to happen when players have a way to get out from under the organization. This organization has to do a better job at filling the roster from within as Treliving is heading down the route of Darryl Sutter tracking away too many draft picks to fill out the roster. There's simply no reason Bartkowski should be occupying a roster spot over the top defenseman in Stockton.
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Old 06-17-2017, 07:19 PM   #243
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I guess Treliving just had paranoia.
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Old 06-17-2017, 07:54 PM   #244
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I guess Treliving just had paranoia.
Well there's an important difference between Treliving's perspective and the fan perspective. Treliving has information, fans were speculating. If Treliving talks to the agent and has a strong sense that they want to test free agency then obviously you're more open to dealing the kid.

IMO what is paranoia is a fan assuming a kid who goes back to school for his 4th year will definitely test the UFA market. I still maintain that. Lots of proof against it including guys like Jankowski. My reaction was because I was assuming this was the logic for some of you.

However some people in this thread read the signs a lot better than I did. There was legitimate reason to be concerned given the Treliving hint at a signing and then Hickey's announcement as captain. I underplayed the concern, I'll admit it. I still think a few of the people in the thread were a bit presumptuous in assuming he 100% would test the market. But yeah, I'll admit I underplayed the concern. Good on a few of you for reading into the situation. Your paranoia was justified in this case :P
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Old 06-17-2017, 07:56 PM   #245
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Well there's an important difference between Treliving's perspective and the fan perspective. Treliving has information, fans were speculating. If Treliving talks to the agent and has a strong sense that they want to test free agency then obviously you're more open to dealing the kid.

IMO what is paranoia is a fan assuming a kid who goes back to school for his 4th year will definitely test the UFA market. I still maintain that. Lots of proof against it including guys like Jankowski. My reaction was because I was assuming this was the logic for some of you.

However some people in this thread read the signs a lot better than I did. There was legitimate reason to be concerned given the Treliving hint at a signing and then Hickey's announcement as captain. I underplayed the concern, I'll admit it. I still think a few of the people in the thread were a bit presumptuous in assuming he 100% would test the market. But yeah, I'll admit I underplayed the concern. Good on a few of you for reading into the situation. Your paranoia was justified in this case :P
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:07 PM   #246
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Well there's an important difference between Treliving's perspective and the fan perspective. Treliving has information, fans were speculating. If Treliving talks to the agent and has a strong sense that they want to test free agency then obviously you're more open to dealing the kid.

IMO what is paranoia is a fan assuming a kid who goes back to school for his 4th year will definitely test the UFA market. I still maintain that. Lots of proof against it including guys like Jankowski. My reaction was because I was assuming this was the logic for some of you.

However some people in this thread read the signs a lot better than I did. There was legitimate reason to be concerned given the Treliving hint at a signing and then Hickey's announcement as captain. I underplayed the concern, I'll admit it. I still think a few of the people in the thread were a bit presumptuous in assuming he 100% would test the market. But yeah, I'll admit I underplayed the concern. Good on a few of you for reading into the situation. Your paranoia was justified in this case :P
Fair enough.

The general handwaveyness and pot shots that get tossed around on these boards do get pretty annoying though. Calling people paranoid, or insinuating some of us didn't watch the games because we had a different opinion from management, etc, etc. The opinion-suppression is not necessary - this is a forum and that word means a place where people come to exchange ideas, not just have the collective circle jerk a lot of people seem to want.
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:17 PM   #247
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So can we stop pretending that there's no risk in drafting college-bound players?
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:19 PM   #248
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I said it before and I will say it again. If you are never leaving open 6/7 spots on your roster for your drafted/developed guys this is the kind of stuff that's going to happen when players have a way to get out from under the organization. This organization has to do a better job at filling the roster from within as Treliving is heading down the route of Darryl Sutter tracking away too many draft picks to fill out the roster. There's simply no reason Bartkowski should be occupying a roster spot over the top defenseman in Stockton.
While I understand the philosophy of leaving the 6/7 defence spots open for prospects, I am curious who all these Flames defence prospects are who should have made the team over the years? The only example I can think of is Giordano when Sutter offered him a 2 way and he left for Russia.

The fact is the Flames haven't had many good defencemen in the system who earned NHL spots. Ramholt never belonged in the NHL and more recently Kulak and Wotherspoon couldn't beat out Wideman for a job. I suppose you can say Andersson should have been on the team at the end of last season, but he didn't earn a spot out of camp and I understand the argument of not bringing a rookie into the lineup for the playoffs. The only NHL defencemen the Flames have drafted and developed since Sutter are Phaneuf and Brodie. Phanuef was given a spot before turning pro and Brodie was a call up who earned a spot the next season.

The Flames defence prospects are in a much better place now however and I fully expect Andersson and possibly Kulak, Wotherspoon, or Kylington are on the opening day roster.
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Old 06-17-2017, 08:56 PM   #249
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While I understand the philosophy of leaving the 6/7 defence spots open for prospects, I am curious who all these Flames defence prospects are who should have made the team over the years? The only example I can think of is Giordano when Sutter offered him a 2 way and he left for Russia.

The fact is the Flames haven't had many good defencemen in the system who earned NHL spots. Ramholt never belonged in the NHL and more recently Kulak and Wotherspoon couldn't beat out Wideman for a job. I suppose you can say Andersson should have been on the team at the end of last season, but he didn't earn a spot out of camp and I understand the argument of not bringing a rookie into the lineup for the playoffs. The only NHL defencemen the Flames have drafted and developed since Sutter are Phaneuf and Brodie. Phanuef was given a spot before turning pro and Brodie was a call up who earned a spot the next season.

The Flames defence prospects are in a much better place now however and I fully expect Andersson and possibly Kulak, Wotherspoon, or Kylington are on the opening day roster.
C'mon. Kulak and Wotherspoon easily beat out Wideman. But they were "easy" to send down. It's very challenging to send down 5.25 million in the AHL out of the hop because that guarantees said player can't improve his trade value over the course of the season and you immediately hurt your cap structure for the entire season.

It's pointless to speculate. Wideman had a NMC. But Wideman was never the problem. Why constantly bring in these low-range guys like Jokipakka, Nakladal, Engelland, Smid, Bartowski to play 5-7 minutes when Wotherspoon probably never needed yet ANOTHER AHL season at 20 mins a night? At some point, it just tells your prospects there's just no opportunities.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:06 PM   #250
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So can we stop pretending that there's no risk in drafting college-bound players?
It is different than drafting CHL players how?
You may recall Jarrett Stoll or Tim Erixon
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:13 PM   #251
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It is different than drafting CHL players how?
You may recall Jarrett Stoll or Tim Erixon
I think the main difference is that a player has more incentive or motivation to stay in university for the full duration. If it is likely that they will just be playing in the AHL for a couple of seasons if they sign a pro-contract, finishing their degree has a lot of allure. Then they become a valued UFA after.

For CHL players that don't sign, they risk simply getting re-drafted by the same team or another team that they don't want to play for.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:17 PM   #252
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I think the main difference is that a player has more incentive or motivation to stay in university for the full duration. If it is likely that they will just be playing in the AHL for a couple of seasons if they sign a pro-contract, finishing their degree has a lot of allure. Then they become a valued UFA after.

For CHL players that don't sign, they risk simply getting re-drafted by the same team or another team that they don't want to play for.
Not really true though.
4 years for either player to become a UFA.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:21 PM   #253
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Not really true though.
4 years for either player to become a UFA.
But not too many junior players are going to turn down a contract to become a UFA at 22. A highly touted prospect might do it to the first team that drafts them, but they would be foolish to do it to the second team once they are an overaged junior player. They aren't getting a degree out of it. University players exchange income for something that has value in the real world.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:24 PM   #254
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I get that, just not sure how much greater is the risk? Flames have been burnt twice (that I am aware of) drafting CHL players that refused to sign.
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Old 06-17-2017, 09:36 PM   #255
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So can we stop pretending that there's no risk in drafting college-bound players?
There's risk is drafting a player from pretty much anywhere. CHL players are a risk to re-enter the draft, or become UFA's if they were an older draft pick (assuming the rules haven't changed too radically in the past CBA). Europeans are a risk to never come over or to go back home if they don't like their coach/situation/contract. College players are a risk to play out their eligibility and then go UFA Aug 15.

What I think is disproportionate is the amount of worrying that is done over this possibility vs the % of college players who refuse to sign with the team that drafted them and test UFA. It's a very low %. But there seems to be a lot of worrying about it in general. I still think the riskiest players are the Russians and I'd take that into consideration in my drafting. I don't think the "risk" of college players going UFA really affects any draft decisions.

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Old 06-17-2017, 10:07 PM   #256
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C'mon. Kulak and Wotherspoon easily beat out Wideman. But they were "easy" to send down. It's very challenging to send down 5.25 million in the AHL out of the hop because that guarantees said player can't improve his trade value over the course of the season and you immediately hurt your cap structure for the entire season.

It's pointless to speculate. Wideman had a NMC. But Wideman was never the problem. Why constantly bring in these low-range guys like Jokipakka, Nakladal, Engelland, Smid, Bartowski to play 5-7 minutes when Wotherspoon probably never needed yet ANOTHER AHL season at 20 mins a night? At some point, it just tells your prospects there's just no opportunities.
Come on, easily beat out Wideman? They were slightly better defensively but were inconsistent and didn't come close to Wideman's offensive ability. If anything it was a toss up and obviously the guys on a two way would be sent down.

The reason the Flames had to bring in all those older defencmen was because no one on the farm was ready. Wotherspoon had plenty of opportunity to gain a roster position over the past few years but has stagnated and it looks like his potential may be a tweener. I wonder if he is overrated because recently he has been the closest thing the Flames had to a defence prospect.

As I said previously I think things are changing because the Flames finally have some decent defence prospects in the system and I wouldn't be surprised to see 1 or 2 of the AHL guys earn a spot next season.
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Old 06-18-2017, 09:40 AM   #257
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IMO what is paranoia is a fan assuming a kid who goes back to school for his 4th year will definitely test the UFA market. I still maintain that. Lots of proof against it including guys like Jankowski. My reaction was because I was assuming this was the logic for some of you.:P
The difference was that the Flames wanted Jankowski to go back and play his 4th year. In this case, it was clear that the Flames wanted to sign Hickey this year. Lacombe kid...don't be surprised if he ends up signing with the Oilers. More perceived opportunities on the blueline...new arena...and McDavid.
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