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Old 05-19-2017, 03:03 PM   #6541
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I wouldn't say Matthews has a long way to go. Kid just put up 40 in a rookie season as an 18 year old, and plays a pretty impressive all around game.
He and McDavid are much different players but I'm not sure that the gap between the two is dramatic.
I see Eichel a bit differently as I don't think he has the same ability to elevate those around him.
I hate the Leafs as much as anyone and found the TSN/RSN love fest for him extremely annoying but that aside the kid had a hell of a rookie season. I expect a little bit of regression from that team next season but he looks to me like he could be to McDavid like Malkin is to Crosby.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:11 PM   #6542
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Lindros was called generational at one time as well.

Let's wait to see how his career plays out prior to putting him in or near that list.
I dare say if he hadn't suffered injuries, Lindros would have lived up to that label - and for a period of time - he did.
A unique combination of physicality and skill that we hadn't really seen before. And I think he was still getting better when he started to have injury issues.

I suppose we can solve this in part by making a distinction between Generational Potential and Generational. The former list would always be larger than the latter given that only a sub-set of those with the potential will live up to it.

Right now the league probably has one Generational player (Crosby).

And the league has a few potential generational players
- Matthews
- McDavid
- Eichel
- Laine?

Feels odd only to include forwards but the bar for Dmen and Goalies seems to be even higher. I don't know there exists a dman or goalie with generational potential in all of hockey (prospects included).
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:18 PM   #6543
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I dare say if he hadn't suffered injuries, Lindros would have lived up to that label - and for a period of time - he did.
A unique combination of physicality and skill that we hadn't really seen before. And I think he was still getting better when he started to have injury issues.

I suppose we can solve this in part by making a distinction between Generational Potential and Generational. The former list would always be larger than the latter given that only a sub-set of those with the potential will live up to it.

Right now the league probably has one Generational player (Crosby).

And the league has a few potential generational players
- Matthews
- McDavid
- Eichel
- Laine?

Feels odd only to include forwards but the bar for Dmen and Goalies seems to be even higher. I don't know there exists a dman or goalie with generational potential in all of hockey (prospects included).
Yeah bang on the head and I agree about Lindros. The potential is there with McDavid, but he isn't there yet. He needs to meet, probably exceed that potential.

You are right about D men and goalies.

Setting aside Orr, has there been another generational D-man? I am not sure there is a unanimous vote.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:18 PM   #6544
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I would consider Nik Lindstrom generational.
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Old 05-19-2017, 03:21 PM   #6545
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I would consider Nik Lindstrom generational.
Yeah I thought of him,I would also chuck Coffee into that list as well, 1409 games played 1531 pts.

It certainly is a tuffer list to compile.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:04 PM   #6546
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Can someone explain to me what "generational player" actually means? It is a very popular term these days. The Oilers drafted a "generational player" in the same year the Sabres did, then the Leafs drafted a "generational player" the very next year.

It seems to me that a "generational player" would be someone that comes along once in a "generation" but that doesn't seem to be what it means at all.
I don't like using the term "generational player" as well. Just call them great players and leave it at that.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:05 PM   #6547
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Originally Posted by JiriHrdina View Post
I dare say if he hadn't suffered injuries, Lindros would have lived up to that label - and for a period of time - he did.
A unique combination of physicality and skill that we hadn't really seen before. And I think he was still getting better when he started to have injury issues.

I suppose we can solve this in part by making a distinction between Generational Potential and Generational. The former list would always be larger than the latter given that only a sub-set of those with the potential will live up to it.

Right now the league probably has one Generational player (Crosby).

And the league has a few potential generational players
- Matthews
- McDavid
- Eichel
- Laine?

Feels odd only to include forwards but the bar for Dmen and Goalies seems to be even higher. I don't know there exists a dman or goalie with generational potential in all of hockey (prospects included).
No love for Ovi?

What is the criteria to make one Generational?
Matthews rookie year he had 40 Goals, 29 Assists, 69 Pts
Eichel has had 2 seasons, 24-32-56 and 24-33-57 (only 62gp)
Laine rookie year was 36-28-64
Mcdavid has 2 years, 16-32-48 (45 gp) and 30-70-100

So, if you're in the 55+ pt club with high draft pedigree at a young age you get generational consideration?
why not Johnny? cuz he was a 4th round pick?
Johnny 24-40-64 rookie year puts him in the mix, so does his 30-48-78 2nd year...

But back to Ovi...
Rookie year: 52-54-106
Crosby Rookie year: 39-63-102

Ovi has scored 50 or more goals in 7 of 12 seasons.
Crosby has done it once.
Ovi has had 100 or more points in 4 of 12 seasons.
Crosby has 5 seasons of 100 or more points.

Ovechkin has more regular season points than Crosby in the same amount of seasons. Yes more games played, due to Crosby's injuries, but still, he has more.
So i find it odd that you can say there is only 1 Generational player in the league, and it is only Crosby, but there's 4 young guys now, that have proven nothing compared to Ovi, that could be, or have the potential to be.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:07 PM   #6548
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Yeah but Coffee lacked a complete game. He would be way down my list behind the likes of Potvin, Bourque, Lindstrom, Niedermayer, Robinson, Dion, Chelios, Pronger. Heck I think Chopper was a better dman. Coffee doesn't make the list.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:10 PM   #6549
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No love for Ovi?

What is the criteria to make one Generational?
Matthews rookie year he had 40 Goals, 29 Assists, 69 Pts
Eichel has had 2 seasons, 24-32-56 and 24-33-57 (only 62gp)
Laine rookie year was 36-28-64
Mcdavid has 2 years, 16-32-48 (45 gp) and 30-70-100

So, if you're in the 55+ pt club with high draft pedigree at a young age you get generational consideration?
why not Johnny? cuz he was a 4th round pick?
Johnny 24-40-64 rookie year puts him in the mix, so does his 30-48-78 2nd year...

But back to Ovi...
Rookie year: 52-54-106
Crosby Rookie year: 39-63-102

Ovi has scored 50 or more goals in 7 of 12 seasons.
Crosby has done it once.
Ovi has had 100 or more points in 4 of 12 seasons.
Crosby has 5 seasons of 100 or more points.

Ovechkin has more regular season points than Crosby in the same amount of seasons. Yes more games played, due to Crosby's injuries, but still, he has more.
So i find it odd that you can say there is only 1 Generational player in the league, and it is only Crosby, but there's 4 young guys now, that have proven nothing compared to Ovi, that could be, or have the potential to be.
Again I was describing generational potential. At this point AO isn't about potential, he is what he is.
And for me he's not generational at all. Zero cups. And doesn't elevate his teammates like generational players do.
He's absolutely elite in one area of the game - goals. Generational players are elite in multiple facets.
Plus he's a goof.

Similarly Johnny is elite in a narrow set of skills. A front line player but not complete enough to be generational or have the potential of that. His upside is Patty Kane - who I don't consider to be generational.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:15 PM   #6550
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Generational should come through the league once a generation; your Orr, Howe, Gretz, types

Not McDavid, Crosby, Ovi, Matthews, Eichel, etc all within a 10 year span. Effectively contradicts the meaning of the word. Maybe players and training are just better now, but you have have multiple "best of the generations" at once.

Its a useless clickbait term now that TSN throws around like candy to hype up their own draft programming
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:16 PM   #6551
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Generational should come through the league once a generation; your Orr, Howe, Gretz, types

Not McDavid, Crosby, Ovi, Matthews, Eichel, etc all within a 10 year span. Effectively contradicts the meaning of the word. Maybe players and training are just better now, but you have have multiple "best of the generations" at once.

Its a useless clickbait term now that TSN throws around like candy to hype up their own draft programming
Then it becomes a time-based definition rather than skill-based which is I think how most people use it.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:16 PM   #6552
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Yeah but Coffee lacked a complete game. He would be way down my list behind the likes of Potvin, Bourque, Lindstrom, Niedermayer, Robinson, Dion, Chelios, Pronger. Heck I think Chopper was a better dman. Coffee doesn't make the list.
I loved MacInnis, but he and Dion above Paul Coffey? Coffey's game was complete enough.
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Old 05-19-2017, 04:54 PM   #6553
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Generational should come through the league once a generation; your Orr, Howe, Gretz, types

Not McDavid, Crosby, Ovi, Matthews, Eichel, etc all within a 10 year span. Effectively contradicts the meaning of the word. Maybe players and training are just better now, but you have have multiple "best of the generations" at once.

Its a useless clickbait term now that TSN throws around like candy to hype up their own draft programming
I agree with this.

To be generational, a player should not only be the best player of his era, but there should be a gap between him and everyone else.

Gretzky, Orr, Lemeiux and people like that.

For me, Crosby is borderline - definitely the best for many years, but not a very big gap between him and others.

McDavid is not generational. If he can continue to up his game and not only become the best player in the league, but create some separation, and do it for several years. THEN he would be generational.

Right now, he isn't even the best player yet. And we don't even know if he is going to be significantly better than Matthews (who arguably had a better rookie season than McDavid did)
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Old 05-19-2017, 05:57 PM   #6554
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Ovy is generational.

He will go down as one of the top pure goal scorers of all time

He brought physical play and in his prime he was arguably the best player in the league.

Just cause he is matched up against another generational player.

Does anyone not think Mario was generational?
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:01 PM   #6555
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I agree with this.

To be generational, a player should not only be the best player of his era, but there should be a gap between him and everyone else.

Gretzky, Orr, Lemeiux and people like that.

For me, Crosby is borderline - definitely the best for many years, but not a very big gap between him and others.

McDavid is not generational. If he can continue to up his game and not only become the best player in the league, but create some separation, and do it for several years. THEN he would be generational.

Right now, he isn't even the best player yet. And we don't even know if he is going to be significantly better than Matthews (who arguably had a better rookie season than McDavid did)
I wouldn't really count Coffey as a generational player or even close to it, that generation of hockey featured weak goaltending no teams had any kind of depth at all and good players feasted on that.

Gretz was absolutely generation and in my mind in the argument with Orr and Howe.

Lemieux was also generational, but I wouldn't put anyone else in that stratosphere.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:03 PM   #6556
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I didn't (and wouldn't) include Coffey either
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:11 PM   #6557
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Yeah but Coffee lacked a complete game. He would be way down my list behind the likes of Potvin, Bourque, Lindstrom, Niedermayer, Robinson, Dion, Chelios, Pronger. Heck I think Chopper was a better dman. Coffee doesn't make the list.
Dion Phaneuf? My God man, what are you talking about?
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:13 PM   #6558
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Dion Phaneuf? My God man, what are you talking about?
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:17 PM   #6559
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And the league has a few potential generational players
- Matthews
- McDavid
- Eichel
- Laine?

Feels odd only to include forwards but the bar for Dmen and Goalies seems to be even higher. I don't know there exists a dman or goalie with generational potential in all of hockey (prospects included).
While I agree McDavid is not a "generational" player yet, it may be a disservice by putting him in same category as these guys, all of whom may end up great. Two years in the league, McDavid has an Art Ross which he won handily, about to win the Hart and got to 2nd round of playoffs. Those guys not close to that.

McDavid doesn't need to improve to be "generational". Those guys, to varying extents, all do.

Putting the Oilers hate aside, he has been phenomenal.
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Old 05-19-2017, 06:27 PM   #6560
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I wouldn't really count Coffey as a generational player or even close to it, that generation of hockey featured weak goaltending no teams had any kind of depth at all and good players feasted on that.

Gretz was absolutely generation and in my mind in the argument with Orr and Howe.

Lemieux was also generational, but I wouldn't put anyone else in that stratosphere.
What about the Rocket? Before my time but seems like he defined the game for a period of time.
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