Tracking the anti-LBGTQ+ movement

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I think one has to ask why they are so fragile? Do you think that possibly the LGBTQ Community are risking a part of their acceptance by insisting on the use of the various pronouns, when they ask that parents be excluded from decisions made by their children in the classroom, when parents object to the manner in which sex education is taught, when they condone physical sex changes in underage people, when they expand their community to LGBTQQIP2SAA....

In no way do I wish us to backtrack on all the gains made by the LGBT Community in the past decades. However, when the drums for change is coming from virtue signaling politicians and psychologists and teachers wishing to change the world, I think it's time to ask questions as to how all these change will affect society.

For the first bolded, I'm kind of amazed we still have to have a conversation around why this is an issue. Has this not been laid out over and over? Some kids don't feel safe at home coming out, or aren't ready, or any other number of reasons? There are loads of answers to this question, I suggest you seek them out if you still hold this view.

As to the second part, I'd invite you to look at which politicians are making these tings an issue. I think you will find it is overwhelmingly coming from the right as they attempt to put their boots down on anything that makes them feel uncomfortable.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Okay there, Jordan Peterson.

Well, I’m out of this thread. Clearly can’t have a logical discussion without a personal jab.

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by bluejays

I have no horse in this race aside from firmly believing in equality.


However, this analogy is a little exaggerated no? The far left would likely be more about making pronouns a human rights issue enough to charge a person for not using it. Middle ground is more to ask why each side believes in what they argue. Then just keep asking why and resolving each underlying issue.

Let's explore that then.

As a middle ground, the question to ask a far right person: why do you want all LGBTQ+ dead?

The question to ask a far left: why do you want a person to go to jail for not calling the preferred pronouns?

At face value, one side still believes that the other should live ( just that they're in jail for it). While the other side wants them all dead. Given this context, the extreme left position is still more reasonable than the extreme right.

Is the middle then that 50% of far right bigots go to jail while 50% of LGBTQ+ are dead? To me, this is still absurd.

[ResAlien]

Originally Posted by bluejays

Well, I’m out of this thread. Clearly can’t have a logical discussion without a personal jab.

That’s a personal jab? Posters got soft

[KelVarnsen]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

That’s a personal jab? Posters got soft

I believe the word is fragile

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by KelVarnsen

I believe the word is fragile

Snowflakes.

[Izzle]

Originally Posted by ResAlien

That’s a personal jab? Posters got soft

Someone got offended by calling them a different name than they go by.

And we wonder why LGBTQ+ are not supposed to be offended when someone calls them something other than their preferred pronoun.

[indes]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

In BC recently, the government has increased available resources and grants to companies that hire people who self-identify. This isn't just limited to people who self-identify as a visible minority, but also people who self-identify as LGBTQ+. This caused a backlash from the usual "they're taking our jerbs" people. Then you have people opposed to school curriculums that implement LGBTQ+ topics to young children. I am not saying doing so is right or wrong, but it has created a lot of debate and backlash.

Nothing helps equality like giving some people a leg up over others! As someone who's lost out on a great job because they were only "making diversity hires" it does piss me off. It also seems very counter intuitive to start asking people's sexual orientations for jobs in the name of equality too doesn't it?

This issue isn't any different than the other wedge issues that come to the forefront. Most people probably started in the middle, then someone the right went a little more right, then in turn someone on the left went a little more left. Now a bunch of people are at the extreme side of the issues because of the identity politics where you're either with us or against us.

I mean, I'm sure I'm going to get trashed for this but its pretty wild to see such a huge issue for such a small percentage of the population. I feel like LGB was pretty commonplace and hasn't been a talking point for a while like transgender has lately. The trans community is less than 2% of the population yet its all over headlines, discussions, forums. We're debating curriculums, parenting rights, public funds, use of public spaces, etc. It's insane. I guess I don't understand the desire of governments and people to put so much time and resources into such a tiny minority.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

It's absolutely wild that the first post in this thread was about LGBTQ people literally being prosecuted and thrown in jail and somehow the entire discussion seems to be about the tension between... what, going to a pride parade and... not? And affirmative action hires, I guess?

Spectacular derail, folks.

[Jason14h]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

It's absolutely wild that the first post in this thread was about LGBTQ people literally being prosecuted and thrown in jail and somehow the entire discussion seems to be about the tension between... what, going to a pride parade and... not? And affirmative action hires, I guess?

Spectacular derail, folks.

Well the third post in the thread asked the question of WHY and that has been the discussion point of the thread

Because there wasn’t a question in the first post - it was actually just a “wake up this is happening “ post .

So people have tried to answer the question of why it is now happening . Doesn’t seem “wild” to have discussion on why the tension exists / seems to have escalated

[Doctorfever]

I don’t follow or pretend to fully understand the backlash. I guess one of the biggest things out there seems to be trans swimmers swimming against women.

I don’t know, I have friends and relatives with different sexual orientations than mine, I don’t see it as a big deal at all. In fact, sexual orientation isn’t something that we talk to each other about, just doesn’t come up in conversations (not that I would care if it did).

But definitely too much energy is being put I to anti-LGBT+. Like who really cares what people do with their personal time? To me, they are the same person they were before they came out. With that being said, I don’t think that I know anyone who is trans. Different story there, if they want to use a different pronoun or name, just call them by there preferred pronoun and name, doesn’t seem like it has to be difficult.

Anyways, I wish that threads like this didn’t have to exist, but clearly they do.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by Lanny_McDonald

Things went too far, too fast, and did not happen at the speed of adoption the culture was ready to accept.

When it comes to human rights issues, is that really an acceptable timeline to work on?

We’d be severely lacking in notable civil rights improvements if we waited around for enough people to get comfortable. Pronouns are too far, but so was marriage at one point (still is to a lot of people, are we really comfortable enough?). So was just engaging in regular activities without being arrested before that. At what point was the American south culturally ready to accept desegregation? Were we conveniently ready for women’s suffrage at the right time?

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I don’t follow or pretend to fully understand the backlash. I guess one of the biggest things out there seems to be trans swimmers swimming against women.

I don’t know, I have friends and relatives with different sexual orientations than mine, I don’t see it as a big deal at all. In fact, sexual orientation isn’t something that we talk to each other about, just doesn’t come up in conversations (not that I would care if it did).

But definitely too much energy is being put I to anti-LGBT+. Like who really cares what people do with their personal time? To me, they are the same person they were before they came out. With that being said, I don’t think that I know anyone who is trans. Different story there, if they want to use a different pronoun or name, just call them by there preferred pronoun and name, doesn’t seem like it has to be difficult.

Anyways, I wish that threads like this didn’t have to exist, but clearly they do.

But if that’s one of the biggest things, then it should be a non-issue for 99% of the population, though it seems like a lot of non-athletes are the ones who are the most vocal about it.

[craigwd]

Originally Posted by Doctorfever

I don’t follow or pretend to fully understand the backlash. I guess one of the biggest things out there seems to be trans swimmers swimming against women.

I don’t know, I have friends and relatives with different sexual orientations than mine, I don’t see it as a big deal at all. In fact, sexual orientation isn’t something that we talk to each other about, just doesn’t come up in conversations (not that I would care if it did).

But definitely too much energy is being put I to anti-LGBT+. Like who really cares what people do with their personal time? To me, they are the same person they were before they came out. With that being said, I don’t think that I know anyone who is trans. Different story there, if they want to use a different pronoun or name, just call them by there preferred pronoun and name, doesn’t seem like it has to be difficult.

Anyways, I wish that threads like this didn’t have to exist, but clearly they do.

Exactly.

For example at school:
Teacher: Is _______ here?
Student: It's _______
Teacher: Cool. *marks attendence*

Simple as that. Kids have been doing it for generations. It shouldn't be a big deal now.

What I truly don't understand is that I would say the majority of intolerant people seem to be my age (that is parents and people in their 40s+).

So they grew up in the same era I did - the 80s and 90s. An era of Degrassi, Much Music, and countless after school specials. These are all shows that promote tolerance and acceptance, usually where a bully realizes his mistake and changes his ways.

So I guess these people either a) Cheered for the bully back then or b) used to be tolerant of others and then decided that wasn't for them anymore?????

[Doctorfever]

Originally Posted by Wormius

But if that’s one of the biggest things, then it should be a non-issue for 99% of the population, though it seems like a lot of non-athletes are the ones who are the most vocal about it.

Ya. I worded that poorly.

Seems like it is more me of the bigger issues I heard about, probably not one of the bigger issues out there.

[KelVarnsen]

As someone who came out as asexual earlier this year reading this thread is a reminder of why I won’t be visiting my family this Christmas.

They don’t need to go to Pride or buy things like Pride tape. They just need to accept a person for who they are.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by Wormius

Has any of that progress had a measurable negative impact on anyone’s life? People seem to be pushing back against stuff that doesn’t affect them.

You'd be burying your head in the sand if you think it could possibly not affect other people's lives. Complaints are made against people who may not use the pronoun of choice, whether it be intentionally or unintentionally. Those complaints have led to additions to workstation files, disciplinary action, or termination. The introduction of cancel culture and these rights battles has led to some very interesting dynamics. Careers have been limited, damaged, or destroyed because of something that supposedly doesn't affect them. That is without looking at public pressure and the impact it can have directly on businesses or stock prices for what appears to be simple decisions.

Originally Posted by driveway

This sounds well-reasoned, but is in fact vapid victim-blaming. Describing DEIJ programs as “forced” as opposed to “necessary.” Stating that having queer spokespeople is going “overboard.” Labelling the efforts to establish diversity, equity, inclusion, and justice as a “mistake.”

Lanny, you are giving bigots an excuse for their bigotry with language like this.

Wow, now I'm a victim blamer. It is amazing how quickly you can get labelled for trying to explain a position that is counter to the minority and explain why something may not be the way the minority perceives it. Really getting tired of being labeled as something I am clearly not just because one person does not like the terms or explanation put forward.

And yes, many DEI programs are forced. When institutions have a requirement to adopt a DEI Officer to maintain accreditation, that is forced. When you a mandatory requirement to use or enforce the usage of terms, that is forced. When a program is the result of political pressure rather than operational efficiency, that is forced.

What you seem to forget is that justice is represented by balance. When you provide special treatment to one group and introduce specific ways that you have to treat that group, you affect the balance of the scales. It is why I stated these things must evolve organically so balance is maintained. When a thumb is kept on the scale the outcome is never just and never one to be broadly accepted. You may not like the schedule at which the adoption takes place, but the natural adoption is more permanent than the one where people feel the oppressive hand of regulation on their shoulder. When you regulate to provide for the minority you can make victims out of the majority.

[curves2000]

Just an observation I think, I do think a lot of people can get onboard and have gotten onboard specific human rights and legal right issues within the LGBT community. Where I think this might have shifted form my observation in some aspects is with the demographics of Canada rapidly changing.

Canada is a land of immigrants and bringing in a lot of them at he moment. People who were born in other countries or were raised by people who are from other countries might be doing some pushback against some of the things we are seeing today.

Homosexuality has been around since the beginning of time and a lot of people know that and accept it, not everybody, but a lot of people do now.

Some concepts, ideas, thoughts and more are relatively new these days and that might be where some of the pushback is coming from. A lot of people who are coming from other countries or were raised in immigrant family backgrounds are not nearly as comfortable with some of these things and personally I think that is ok, as long as people are friendly and respectful. Not everybody get's along and that is the way the world works in all aspects of life.

This is not a shot at immigrants or anything, I am a son of immigrants. I know how a lot of people these days are thinking from various communities with regards to these things.

[undercoverbrother]

Originally Posted by curves2000

Just an observation I think, I do think a lot of people can get onboard and have gotten onboard specific human rights and legal right issues within the LGBT community. Where I think this might have shifted form my observation in some aspects is with the demographics of Canada rapidly changing.

Canada is a land of immigrants and bringing in a lot of them at he moment. People who were born in other countries or were raised by people who are from other countries might be doing some pushback against some of the things we are seeing today.

Homosexuality has been around since the beginning of time and a lot of people know that and accept it, not everybody, but a lot of people do now.

Some concepts, ideas, thoughts and more are relatively new these days and that might be where some of the pushback is coming from. A lot of people who are coming from other countries or were raised in immigrant family backgrounds are not nearly as comfortable with some of these things and personally I think that is ok, as long as people are friendly and respectful. Not everybody get's along and that is the way the world works in all aspects of life.

This is not a shot at immigrants or anything, I am a son of immigrants. I know how a lot of people these days are thinking from various communities with regards to these things.

As an immigrant to Canada this completely reads as a shot at immigrants.

Is it possible some immigrants left their country of birth because they were against that nation's views on Human Rights?

Laying this at the feet of immigrants is unnecessary and unfair and sounds like a loud dog whistle.

[Ozy_Flame]

You come to Canada you need to change your political, societal and cultural expectations. You can't just expect to operate in a bubble from your place of origin. Thankfully most immigrants integrate really well.

Canada is a safe haven and refuge from some of the most unlivable places in the world. I think most people recognize that and understand tolerance comes with the territory.