Phaneuf,Sjostrom,Aulie traded to leafs for Hagman,Stajan,Mayers,White

[nemanja2306]

Originally Posted by Double_Dion

Unless the Flames win the cup this year, this trade is a complete bust - and these aren't the "Nieuwendyk"s to take us over the top.

What happens when we lose in the first round?
Second round?
Third round?

Stajan leaves, mayers leaves. Your left with 30 year old Hagman and White- if we resign him. Sorry to say, but those guys are nowhere near Dions talent level.

Absolutely despicable.

Sutters have to go. Why build your team and system around the coaches liking, when you could build it around your superstars; mainly - the defense.

I am still so shocked and angry, I can hardly put it into words.

Chances are, more likely than not, Stajan and White stay. As much as I hate to say it, Phaneufs value dropped quite a bit. Didn't think it would but I guess it has...

[bubbsy]

So you're saying the phaneuf trade was a salary dump ??

(i know i'm over simplifying, but i was expecting a bit better return on our top asset than that).

[darklord700]

Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction

Having good players not under contract sucks just as much when they bolt.

It's also useless to trade for good players, have them do well, and then leave right away.

Trading long term contracts for short term ones isn't such a big deal in this day and age to me. There are risks both ways.

Gio's contract is a good one and so is Rene Bourque's or Mike Cammy's from last year. But if you have one of these bargain contracts, will you trade them away?

So the only long term contracts that one is likely to get back in a deal is the Dion's type long term contract. And his contract was one of the reasons he's being chased out of town by fans.

White is a RFA so it's not like he has much wiggle room this summer. If we like him, chances are we will be able to sign him.

[Double_Dion]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

Chances are, more likely than not, Stajan and White stay. As much as I hate to say it, Phaneufs value dropped quite a bit. Didn't think it would but I guess it has...

It has only dropped because of all the people who expect him to be Norris worthy every year. He is still so young, with so much potential. And if it has dropped so much, then don't trade him. A crappy Dion is still more valuable than no Dion.

I'm having trouble understanding how anyone can think this trade is a good thing. Dion will be the cornerstone of the Leafs for 10 years at least, and he should have been here. The last Leaf from this deal will be gone in 5 years.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by darklord700

White is a RFA so it's not like he has much wiggle room this summer. If we like him, chances are we will be able to sign him.

That depends if someone wants to give him an offer sheet. Here's the compensation:

$994,433 or below
None (compensation)

$994,433 -to- $1,506,717
3rd Round Pick

$1,506,718 -to- $3,013,433
2nd Round Pick

$3,013,434 -to- $4,520,150
1st, 3rd


So someone could give White up to $3 million and the Flames would either have to match or take the 2nd round pick.

[SebC]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Its not just about the actual dollar amount of cap space saved.

You have to take into account that Dion's salary is now paying several players. That changes the entire salary structure of the team and how much you can afford to pay forwards in the future. You replace a 6.5 million guy on defense with a guy making less than 2 million.

Dealing Sarich still could happen and it by itself would not have had the dramatic salary cap changing implications for years that his Phaneuf deal will have. Sutter can in the future (especially if Jokinen's salary goes poof) allocate Phaneuf's salary to one premiere forward, or several mid-range forwards. That may have drastic implications for our scoring depth without having hurt the defense too much if at all.

Sarich could be replaced by anyone, he's pretty much press box. Kronwall (0.5M) could replace him: 3.1M saved.

Phaneuf deal: subtract 6.5M, add White (0.5), add Stajan (1.75), add Hagman (3), Mayers (1.3) subtract three forwards (Backlund 1.3, Lundmark (0.6), ? ~1). ~2.85 saved.

Completely unnecessary if we're just making room for Kovalchuk, although yes, White is way more cap effective than Phaneuf, which pays for a quality forward in Hagman. Probably displaces some cap effective guys though, like Lundmark.

We'll have to see what happens with all the extra forwards though, can't really do a proper accounting until then.

[GreenLantern]

Posts like these are what kept me coming back to this forum way back when, FDW.

Well done.

[malcolmk14]

I have to say, I'm absolutely pumped about Ian White, Niklas Hagman, and Matt Stajan in Flames jerseys.

White has been Toronto's best defenceman not named Tomas Kaberle. The way he has played this year he is comparable to a more offensive Mark Giordano. Ian White logged more even-strength minutes in Toronto than Jay Bouwmeester does here.

In fact, the only guys in the NHL with more even strength ice time than Ian White are Joni Pitkanen, Duncan Keith, and Brian Campbell. Not bad company.

A good comparison for Hagman is Bourque without the dumb penalties, and Stajan I would like to say is like Langkow, without the penalty killing ability and with more creativity offensively.

All of these guys will help the powerplay.

[nemanja2306]

Originally Posted by Double_Dion

It has only dropped because of all the people who expect him to be Norris worthy every year. He is still so young, with so much potential. And if it has dropped so much, then don't trade him. A crappy Dion is still more valuable than no Dion.

I'm having trouble understanding how anyone can think this trade is a good thing. Dion will be the cornerstone of the Leafs for 10 years at least, and he should have been here. The last Leaf from this deal will be gone in 5 years.

We have Bouwmeester now, and he's going to be the cornerstone for us. We also have Pelech, Negrin, Erixon stepping up in the next couple of years. And Giordano as well... Not to mention White, who in his own right, is a top 4 defenceman. In fact, look at White...this year he has more points than Phaneuf. Difference? One is making $6.5M the other $1M. Of course Dion will get better and in time will be 10x the player White is, but not right now. Defence for us is not an issue. BUT we get two top 6 forwards we NEED!! And like I said before, most likely Stajan and White stay. Anything could happen of course, but I can't see the reason they leave. Stajan gets to play with one of the greatest players of this decade, why would he leave? Not to mention he's on a contender right now after playing for the laughing stock of the NHL his whole career. Also, our organization is known for treating players well which is an incentive for players to sign with us unlike, say, the bozos up north...
Look, I LOVE Phaneuf, definately think he's got a bright future. But if we could have gotten better deals, I'm sure Sutter would have taken them. But we didn't so this was the best we could do. We are definately a better team today than 3 days ago.
Also, maybe Phaneuf WAS the problem in the locker room, this trade solves those dressing room problems as well. (Of course, this is pure speculation)

[Double_Dion]

Originally Posted by malcolmk14

I have to say, I'm absolutely pumped about Ian White, Niklas Hagman, and Matt Stajan in Flames jerseys.

White has been Toronto's best defenceman not named Tomas Kaberle. The way he has played this year he is comparable to a more offensive Mark Giordano.

A good comparison for Hagman is Bourque without the dumb penalties, and Stajan I would like to say is like Langkow, without the penalty killing ability and with more creativity offensively.

All of these guys will help the powerplay.

So we trade a franchise defenseman for some more 2nd tier players, and a # 4,5,6,7 defenseman? What a joke.

[bubbsy]

it's been a day and a half almost and this trade still leaves me completely baffled.

Of the flames draft picks, the only players currently on the roster are a grinder in moss, an even worse grinder in nystrom, a 6th dman in pardy, and a 4th line center on most nights in boyd.....

in the post lockout era, the cup winners have been: Carolina, Anahiem, Detroit Pittsburg.

Notice how each of those teams had critical elements raised through their systems since they were drafted (ward, staal.... getzlaf, perry, penner.... zetterberg, datsyuk, lidstrom.... crosyby, malkin, staal).

The point is, other than the ducks maybe, each of those teams used their draft picks as the cornerstones, and then sprinkled in FAs and trades to bolster the lineups into the elite level.

Phaneuf was the one kid the organization could be proud of, and build around.

Instead, ~9 of 12 forwards on any given night (nystrom, moss, boyd, prust)... and 5 of 6 dmen (pardy) are all traded/FA acquisitions.

I don't think Sutter gets it. If he did , a first round pick , or a top end talent under 26 would have HAD to be in the equation.

At least the jokinen deal last year, one could see the potential upside. I just don't see it here. Unless the flames win the cup this season, this trade is a bad one for the flames organization. However, this isn't 88-89, and the roster wasn't 1 or 2 pieces away from becoming elite.

The tweaks from this trade bring the flames into contention for a 6-8 position finish, which drops them a far cry away from a first round victory, let alone a cup run .....

// end rant

[malcolmk14]

Originally Posted by Double_Dion

So we trade a franchise defenseman for some more 2nd tier players, and a # 4,5,6,7 defenseman? What a joke.

No, Jay Bouwmeester is still a Flame.

[Double_Dion]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

We have Bouwmeester now, and he's going to be the cornerstone for us. We also have Pelech, Negrin, Erixon stepping up in the next couple of years. And Giordano as well... Not to mention White, who in his own right, is a top 4 defenceman. In fact, look at White...this year he has more points than Phaneuf. Difference? One is making $6.5M the other $1M. Of course Dion will get better and in time will be 10x the player White is, but not right now. Defence for us is not an issue. BUT we get two top 6 forwards we NEED!! And like I said before, most likely Stajan and White stay. Anything could happen of course, but I can't see the reason they leave. Stajan gets to play with one of the greatest players of this decade, why would he leave? Not to mention he's on a contender right now after playing for the laughing stock of the NHL his whole career. Also, our organization is known for treating players well which is an incentive for players to sign with us unlike, say, the bozos up north...
Look, I LOVE Phaneuf, definately think he's got a bright future. But if we could have gotten better deals, I'm sure Sutter would have taken them. But we didn't so this was the best we could do. We are definately a better team today than 3 days ago.
Also, maybe Phaneuf WAS the problem in the locker room, this trade solves those dressing room problems as well. (Of course, this is pure speculation)

I think we should have built around Dion and ship out players/ coaches that cant play with him. These guys needed to 'man up' and play hockey. We all work with people we don't like. Bouw is not as dynamic a player as Dion. Bouw is soft! And he is doing worse offensively than Dion! He was brought in here for offense too. And if this is the best we could get, then dont trade him!
We all need to stop believing "In Sutter We Trust" He has made some good deals, but what have we done since the 04 run? Nothing. We play a boring, unskilled type of hockey with a bunch of pluggers.

[MelBridgeman]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

We have Bouwmeester now, and he's going to be the cornerstone for us. We also have Pelech, Negrin, Erixon stepping up in the next couple of years. And Giordano as well... Not to mention White, who in his own right, is a top 4 defenceman. In fact, look at White...this year he has more points than Phaneuf. Difference? One is making $6.5M the other $1M. Of course Dion will get better and in time will be 10x the player White is, but not right now. Defence for us is not an issue. BUT we get two top 6 forwards we NEED!! And like I said before, most likely Stajan and White stay. Anything could happen of course, but I can't see the reason they leave. Stajan gets to play with one of the greatest players of this decade, why would he leave? Not to mention he's on a contender right now after playing for the laughing stock of the NHL his whole career. Also, our organization is known for treating players well which is an incentive for players to sign with us unlike, say, the bozos up north...
Look, I LOVE Phaneuf, definately think he's got a bright future. But if we could have gotten better deals, I'm sure Sutter would have taken them. But we didn't so this was the best we could do. We are definately a better team today than 3 days ago.
Also, maybe Phaneuf WAS the problem in the locker room, this trade solves those dressing room problems as well. (Of course, this is pure speculation)

Ok equating stats from a guy playing the year with the leafs, to a guy playing the year with the flames isn't a linear comparison, due to pretty obvious factors.

On another note, Dion stole my chair at the bar once, I'm glad those types of people are outta town

[nemanja2306]

Originally Posted by Double_Dion

I think we should have built around Dion and ship out players/ coaches that cant play with him. These guys needed to 'man up' and play hockey. We all work with people we don't like. Bouw is not as dynamic a player as Dion. Bouw is soft! And he is doing worse offensively than Dion! He was brought in here for offense too. And if this is the best we could get, then dont trade him!
We all need to stop believing "In Sutter We Trust" He has made some good deals, but what have we done since the 04 run? Nothing. We play a boring, unskilled type of hockey with a bunch of pluggers.

First of all, Bouwmeester > Phaneuf.
Second of all, no player is above the team. If Phaneuf was disrupting the team (IF, IF and from all the rumours it could very well be true) then it was the most logical thing to do. You're not going to trade half of your team to make one player happy. IMO, Kipper, Iginla and Bouwmeester are the only untouchable players on the team and you build around them. When Bouwmeester was signed, it was clear that Phaneuf would be the first to go (most value, no NTC...) shoud the need arise. And it has. And for the love of God, give the new guys at least a chance before calling them a bunch of nobodies.

[cral12]

*Phaneuf deal will be talked about in the vain of the infamous Gilmour deal in years to come…
*I’ve now slept on it to digest it further and still hate it. In trading Phaneuf, one of your best assets, you had to get back a young high-end forward. I don’t know what was out there, but if not, you don’t make this deal.
*Short-term gain, BUT long-term pain!
*Prediction: Sutter era in Flames land will come to a crashing end in the near future. Phaneuf trade 1st step…If reported Jokinen trade goes through, it’s an even worse deal.

I'm generally the optimist when it comes to the Flames, but this one is just a tough pill to swallow. I admit the Flames are a better team right now, but NOT that much better...Long term, this will go down as terrible trade.

{Please prove me wrong ######!}

[nemanja2306]

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

Ok equating stats from a guy playing the year with the leafs, to a guy playing the year with the flames isn't a linear comparison, due to pretty obvious factors.

On another note, Dion stole my chair at the bar once, I'm glad those types of people are outta town

I'm not aruging that White is better than Dion. Right now, I'd say they're equal, slight edge to Dion. But the fact is, White is a pretty good substitute for Dion, and as I already stated Bouwmeester, Gio, Regher +prospects made him expandable.

[Ice_Weasel]

I think all the Dion supporters here need to realize that at this point, there is a very good chance that Dion's 'upside' is equivalent to that of Derek Morris (that other Flames drafted stud defenceman that was destined for the Norris). The reality is, no one can say for sure how good Dion will be, some think great, others obvioulsy not so great. My opinion though is that it became clear to those in the know, i.e. those that see how the flames locker room interacts on a daily basis, that moving Dion was the best thing. Regardless of Dion's INDIVIDUAL talent, if he is making the team worse its all for not. When the Flames went to the finals, the city fell in love with the TEAM becasue they played as one. Since Dion has been part of the core (and arguably his buddy Langkow) this has not seemed like a 'team'. This is Iggy and Reggie's team again, and I am actually hopeful that this will be a huge step forward for the flames. Risky...yes. Huge risk for Toronto as well though since they are hoping that he is more like his 22 y/o self than his 24 y/o self. The knee jerk crowd asking for Sutters head need to take a breath, relax, and see how this plays out instead of pretending that they have a crystal ball that guarentees Dion is destined for greatness.

[-TC-]

Originally Posted by Double_Dion

I think we should have built around Dion and ship out players/ coaches that cant play with him...We all need to stop believing "In Sutter We Trust" He has made some good deals, but what have we done since the 04 run? Nothing. We play a boring, unskilled type of hockey with a bunch of pluggers.

LOL, you win the over-reaction of the day award!!

The word on the street is that Phaneuf wasn't well liked in the room and group dynamics are very important, almost as much as on ice performance.

If thatis the case, and he was causing problems, then the Flames are better off without him around.

[Pierre "Monster" McGuire]

Originally Posted by nemanja2306

I'm not aruging that White is better than Dion. Right now, I'd say they're equal, slight edge to Dion. But the fact is, White is a pretty good substitute for Dion, and as I already stated Bouwmeester, Gio, Regher +prospects made him expandable.

Also, to add to this point, I'm sure White won't get lazy like Phaneuf did. He'll play his ass off every night.