Black teen shot and killed by neighborhood watch in Orlando gated community - Page 31 - Calgarypuck Forums - The Unofficial Calgary Flames Fan Community

Senator Clay Davis · 07-13-2013, 08:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

If the same facts were presented with the same witnesses, I doubt you get a conviction.

Maybe, but if we're talking odds of conviction they would definitely be higher for the white girl. And also if it was a white girl walking in that community, highly unlikely there is even a death.

Vulcan · 07-13-2013, 08:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2013...-defense-fired

They withheld evidence, a big no-no and of course fired the guy who blew the whistle.

So they had a couple of pictures of a gun on the victims phone. Does that have anything to do with this trial?

BigBrodieFan · 07-13-2013, 08:52 PM

Not guilty on all counts. Dreading the riots.

Acey · 07-13-2013, 08:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Zimmerman is part Peruvian, part white and part black. Media bias got to you, the guy was a minority, not white.

In no part of that post did I state that Zimmerman was white, merely that my belief that the law and trial in this case were a bit bonkers would hold true if I was white.

CaptainCrunch · 07-13-2013, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulcan

So they had a couple of pictures of a gun on the victims phone. Does that have anything to do with this trial?

Whether it did or not, they withheld evidence during discovery, that's actually very illegal.

If there would have been a conviction its very likely that it would have been turned over on appeal because of that.

The defense is allowed to have all information and evidence collected during the investigation.

At the worst the prosecuting attorney's could face I think 10 years in jail. They could also be reported to the Bar and suspended or expelled.

I think they're going to be fined. But I also think that the embarrassment of losing this case is going to cost them their jobs.

CaptainCrunch · 07-13-2013, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acey

In no part of that post did I state that Zimmerman was white, merely that my belief that the law and trial in this case were a bit bonkers would hold true if I was white.

I completely disagree. In fact the Judge went an extra questionable yard to try to make a conviction easier by allowing a conviction of Manslaughter even though the prosecution hadn't filed for this option.

I think the whole, well if the victim was right there would be a conviction. I don't see how based on the testimony and the facts presented. This verdict was pretty color blind.

Cowperson · 07-13-2013, 08:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Maybe, but if we're talking odds of conviction they would definitely be higher for the white girl. And also if it was a white girl walking in that community, highly unlikely there is even a death.

As Mark O'Mara just said, if the races were reversed, there would have been no charges.

These charges were politically motivated and the District Attorney has her wish, six jurors now have the blame for letting Zimmerman go free instead of her office.

A fair, open trial and a fair, just result based on facts and law.

Cowperson

Acey · 07-13-2013, 08:58 PM

Zimmerman's actual race aside.... SYG being stand your ground states.

Acey · 07-13-2013, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

I completely disagree. In fact the Judge went an extra questionable yard to try to make a conviction easier by allowing a conviction of Manslaughter even though the prosecution hadn't filed for this option.

I think the whole, well if the victim was right there would be a conviction. I don't see how based on the testimony and the facts presented. This verdict was pretty color blind.

What? You disagree that it was bonkers? Didn't you just say there was illegal withholding of evidence?

CaptainCrunch · 07-13-2013, 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

Not guilty on all counts. Dreading the riots.

I would hope that there aren't riots. This is nowhere near the Rodney King case.

I will argue that if there are riots then the media, and Benjimen Crump are highly responsible for it.

Oling_Roachinen · 07-13-2013, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acey

In no part of that post did I state that Zimmerman was white, merely that my belief that the law and trial in this case were a bit bonkers would hold true if I was white.

Why then should race play a part at all? I mean other than Trayvon calling him a creepy ass cracker.

By all accounts Zimmerman was not a racist, especially if the story of him fighting for the justice of a black homeless man is true: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/nati...icle-1.1057162

Vulcan · 07-13-2013, 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Yep, but incredible stupid decisions are not against the law. Zimmerman made a mistake following Martin, but he broke no law and didn't deserve to be beaten to death. He had a right to defend himself if Martin attacked him.

A couple of scratches and a broken nose doesn't equate to being beaten to death. In Canada I believe a self defence can only be allowed if you defend yourself in the same manner that you are attacked or words to that effect.

BigBrodieFan · 07-13-2013, 09:04 PM

Even without the withholding of evidence, I think the defense would have appealed and won if there was a conviction. Not sure what the precedent is, however I have never heard of a judge saying 'Well, this might not get murder2 so you can go ahead and charge him with manslaughter instead.' Changing what a person is charged with at the end of the trial... wtf..

MelBridgeman · 07-13-2013, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Acey

Zimmerman's actual race aside.... SYG being stand your ground states.

this graph is dumb

CaptainCrunch · 07-13-2013, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulcan

A couple of scratches and a broken nose doesn't equate to being beaten to death. In Canada I believe a self defence can only be allowed if you defend yourself in the same manner that you are attacked or words to that effect.

The way that the wounds were inflicted does equal potential to being beaten to death though.

The fact that Martin was on top of Zimmerman not only wailing away on him but slamming his head repeatedly into the concrete probably represented a direct threat to his life according to the expert witnesses called and more importantly to the jury.

And Canada doesn't have the same kind of laws so I don't know how you can equate.

Oling_Roachinen · 07-13-2013, 09:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vulcan

A couple of scratches and a broken nose doesn't equate to being beaten to death. In Canada I believe a self defence can only be allowed if you defend yourself in the same manner that you are attacked or words to that effect.

Well who knows what happens if it wasn't for the unfortunate shooting. You don't need to be stabbed to defend yourself from an attacker with a knife.

But yes, it's entirely possible that Trayvon was just about to get up and leave after laying a beating on Martin. It's also entirely possible he was going to hit him in the head a couple times more. You may feel one way or the other, but there's absolutely no way you can say without a reasonable doubt what would have happened, and that's what is required to convict someone.

Acey · 07-13-2013, 09:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MelBridgeman

this graph is dumb

Yeah there's a ton of variables and they say as much in the article.

CaptainCrunch · 07-13-2013, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigBrodieFan

Even without the withholding of evidence, I think the defense would have appealed and won if there was a conviction. Not sure what the precedent is, however I have never heard of a judge saying 'Well, this might not get murder2 so you can go ahead and charge him with manslaughter instead.' Changing what a person is charged with at the end of the trial... wtf..

There were multiple grounds for appeal on conviction in this trial, I think thats why they had such a lengthy debate today on jury instructions over defining manslaughter convictions.

A lot of advantages were given to the prosecution in this case. They just had a lousy set of facts.

If she would have been smart (the judge) she should have declared a mistrial over the disclosure issue.

Vulcan · 07-13-2013, 09:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Zimmerman is part Peruvian, part white and part black. Media bias got to you, the guy was a minority, not white.

IIRC it was Zimmerman doing the racial profiling. Zimmerman may be a minority but he doesn't fit a blatent prejudicial racial profile.

Acey · 07-13-2013, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Why then should race play a part at all? I mean other than Trayvon calling him a creepy ass cracker.

Why should race play a part? You're asking me why racism exists? I dunno, some people don't like people that are a different other people, God knows why. But all I'm seeing on the internet right are hypothetical scenarios... what if the entire jury isn't white, and of course what if Zimmerman is black and Trayvon is the half-black-half-Peruvian-half-white-half-Jovian mix. This is the United States and race will always matter.