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Old 05-18-2013, 02:20 PM   #41
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Originally Posted by ricardodw View Post
sorry I was laying out the credentials of Niewendyk.... you could have caught the 3 SC rings as that beats Sakic.
What was the point of that post? ... I'm not trying to be a jerk, just looking for clarity.

Are you suggesting Sakic vs Niuewy is a good comparison?
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Old 05-18-2013, 02:47 PM   #42
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Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius View Post
What was the point of that post? ... I'm not trying to be a jerk, just looking for clarity.

Are you suggesting Sakic vs Niuewy is a good comparison?
Yes.

Nieuwendyk was being left out of the discussion of the not quite Gretzky/Lemieux /Crosby great ones where Yzerman and Jagr were mentioned in a class of their own ahead of Iginla.
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Old 05-18-2013, 03:35 PM   #43
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Originally Posted by ricardodw View Post
Yes.

Nieuwendyk was being left out of the discussion of the not quite Gretzky/Lemieux /Crosby great ones where Yzerman and Jagr were mentioned in a class of their own ahead of Iginla.
I don't see Nieuwendyk as being in the same class as Sakic, not really close, actually.

I see it like this...

Top Tier - Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, etc

2nd Tier - Sakic, Yzerman, Bourque, etc

3rd Tier - Iginla, Pronger, Shanahan, etc

For some reason, I love making lists like this. It gets interesting... For example, does Messier make that Top Tier? ... Is Ron Francis clearly in that 2nd Tier? ... And Brett Hull? ... Do you put Lindros in that tier, or does his shorten career keep him with Iginla and Co.? ... Same with Cam Neely?!?

I see Niewendyk being in a 4th tier with players like Lafontaine, Hawerchuk...maybe even Gilmour (though he might be one tier up)

Last edited by PlayfulGenius; 05-18-2013 at 03:37 PM.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:09 PM   #44
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Originally Posted by PlayfulGenius View Post
I don't see Nieuwendyk as being in the same class as Sakic, not really close, actually.

I see it like this...

Top Tier - Gretzky, Lemieux, Orr, etc

2nd Tier - Sakic, Yzerman, Bourque, etc

3rd Tier - Iginla, Pronger, Shanahan, etc

For some reason, I love making lists like this. It gets interesting... For example, does Messier make that Top Tier? ... Is Ron Francis clearly in that 2nd Tier? ... And Brett Hull? ... Do you put Lindros in that tier, or does his shorten career keep him with Iginla and Co.? ... Same with Cam Neely?!?

I see Niewendyk being in a 4th tier with players like Lafontaine, Hawerchuk...maybe even Gilmour (though he might be one tier up)
I'd change up the tiers slightly.

Tier 1-Gretz,Mario, Orr

Tier 2-Jagr,Messier, Hasek, Bourque, Brodeur, Roy, Lidstrom Winners of the BIG trophies in multiple seasons

Tier 3- Sakic,Fedorov,Yzerman,Pronger, Lindros, Forsberg, St.Louis, Iginla, etc. Multiple great seasons + one peak trophy winning season.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:14 PM   #45
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^^^ nice take
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:28 PM   #46
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Kinda off topic but which tier would you put Crosby in?
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:34 PM   #47
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Kinda off topic but which tier would you put Crosby in?
IMO too early and there's still another 5-10 years yet to play out. At the end of the day though I would say he projects to be in the tier two area. I don't really think he will come close to any of the records most of those guys own.

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Old 05-18-2013, 04:36 PM   #48
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Kinda off topic but which tier would you put Crosby in?
Probably tier 3-4 with Lindros. Similar stats, similar accolades as well. By the end of his career he should be a shoein for the aforementioned second tier, maybe even the first if he wins say 4 cups and 5 Hart's by the end of his career.

We should create a top 100 list or something by running a poll of players say since expansion. I love creating lists like these as well, and would like to know how some posters on here would rank players.

Last edited by trackercowe; 05-18-2013 at 04:39 PM.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:37 PM   #49
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Originally Posted by Oil Stain View Post
I'd change up the tiers slightly.

Tier 1-Gretz,Mario, Orr

Tier 2-Jagr,Messier, Hasek, Bourque, Brodeur, Roy, Lidstrom Winners of the BIG trophies in multiple seasons

Tier 3- Sakic,Fedorov,Yzerman,Pronger, Lindros, Forsberg, St.Louis, Iginla, etc. Multiple great seasons + one peak trophy winning season.
Messier is head and shoulders above everyone in tier 2. Honestly, he had a better career than both Mario and Orr and deserves to be ranked higher. That makes me feel gross inside.

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Old 05-18-2013, 04:39 PM   #50
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I would also think that Brodeur and Roy are certainly tier one. With Belfour, Hasek and some of the older goalies reigning in tier 2. I hate Roy and always have but he is onne hockeys true greats of all time.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:40 PM   #51
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To me, Messier is not heads and shoulders above Roy, Brodeur and Lidstrom.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:41 PM   #52
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I would put Patrick Roy in the first tier.

Four Stanley Cups; two each with two different teams
Only player in NHL history to win three playoff MVPs
All-time leader in playoff wins
Completely changed the way goaltenders played the game
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:41 PM   #53
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oil Stain View Post
I'd change up the tiers slightly.

Tier 1-Gretz,Mario, Orr

Tier 2-Jagr,Messier, Hasek, Bourque, Brodeur, Roy, Lidstrom Winners of the BIG trophies in multiple seasons

Tier 3- Sakic,Fedorov,Yzerman,Pronger, Lindros, Forsberg, St.Louis, Iginla, etc. Multiple great seasons + one peak trophy winning season.
Both Sakic and Yzerman should be in tier 2, scratch St.Louis from 3rd tier too.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:43 PM   #54
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I would put Patrick Roy in the first tier.

Four Stanley Cups; two each with two different teams
Only player in NHL history to win three playoff MVPs
All-time leader in playoff wins
Completely changed the way goaltenders played the game
I believe Roy's impact on the position is a legit argument for that 1st Tier... He's firmly embedded in the 2nd Tier, at worst.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:43 PM   #55
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Messier is head and shoulders above everyone in tier 2. Honestly, he had a better career than both Mario and Orr and deserves to be ranked higher. That makes me feel gross inside.
Higher than Orr and Lemieux? No, just no. Messier was pretty much ineffective for the last decade of his career, and was pretty much a negative player during his time in Vancouver. He had a couple great seasons in Edmonton and New York, but for most of his cups he was more of a supporting player. Gretzky, Kurri, and Coffey played bigger roles, and even guys like Anderson and Tikkanen played bigger roles on some of the Oilers Cup winning teams (during the playoffs).

You could argue he's still a top ten player, but not ahead of Orr, Lemieux, or Howe.

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Both Sakic and Yzerman should be in tier 2, scratch St.Louis from 3rd tier too.
I wouldn't put Lindros in that tier either, even though he was the most dominant player player in the league for a few years. Zero cups, and only one Hart put him one ranking below that imo. Iginla should make that tier, but still lower than Sakic, Fedorov, Yzerman, and Pronger. I'd rank him right around Forsberg.

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Old 05-18-2013, 04:48 PM   #56
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Probably tier 3-4 with Lindros. Similar stats, similar accolades as well. By the end of his career he should be a shoein for the aforementioned second tier, maybe even the first if he wins say 4 cups and 5 Hart's by the end of his career.

We should create a top 100 list or something by running a poll of players say since expansion. I love creating lists like these as well, and would like to know how some posters on here would rank players.
That's a cool idea...the poll could be reset for each position... Start with Gretzky, Mario, Orr, Howe etc... And with every victor, replace the player with another and vote again... We would end up with a prioritized list based on CPs collective preferences.

This was done last year to rank the top 5 or so at every position for all-time Flames... It was great.
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Old 05-18-2013, 04:53 PM   #57
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Originally Posted by trackercowe View Post
Higher than Orr and Lemieux? No, just no.

You could argue he's still a top ten player, but not ahead of Orr, Lemieux, or Howe.

Disagree. Messier has the cups, the stats, the trophies and the intangibles ( Messier award). But most important, he had the length of career.
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Old 05-18-2013, 06:57 PM   #58
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Disagree. Messier has the cups, the stats, the trophies and the intangibles ( Messier award). But most important, he had the length of career.
Messier is not in the same group as Lemieux, Gretzky, Orr. He was nowhere near as gifted a player. He was a great player, leader and all but skills-wise he's clearly 2nd tier. Those three players had natural skills so elite that it's entirely possible we may never see again that's how good they were.
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Old 05-18-2013, 07:06 PM   #59
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Haven't read all of the comments so I'm sure it's been stated, but I think the teammate stats indicate how Sakic makes teammates better (naturally as a centre) as much as quality of talent. No doubt Colorado was better most of the time though. I wonder how Tanguays stats compare with each player...obviously different ages for him, but I think he had more points as a young player with Sakic than in his 'prime' with iggy...perhaps his prime was in his younger times, or maybe it all had to do with playing with joe.


I think a better discussion would be iggy vs. mark recchi

Or:

Selanne


A few other guys in a similar realm (some especially with respect to playing entire/most of career with one team):

Elias
Sykora
St Louis
Hossa
Hejduk (obvious peg below for me)
Alfredsson (ditto)
Bondra (ditto)

Ovechkin
Kovalchuk (will be interesting to see what route the rest of their careers take...are they future Kovalevs or future Selannes)
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Old 05-18-2013, 11:32 PM   #60
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Not completely on point, but in response to an earlier post, and forgetting about injuries (ie.,assuming health) who do you take, Crosby or Messier? Lindros or either? Gretzky or Orr or Lemieux? Always impossible to answer, but always so much fun. For me, in prime, healthy, in( response to my questions: Crosby, Lindros (very tough call)... no answer. Only easy one is Crosby over Messier.
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