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Old 07-19-2010, 09:55 AM   #21
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I guess this means no 3D, crap.
Youtube can stream 1080p for free, I don't see why Netflix can't do it when we pay money.
Youtube's 1080p is heavily compressed as well.
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Old 07-19-2010, 09:57 AM   #22
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^^^ Fair enough - all good reasons for everyone. I'm not much of a special feature kind of guy, and seeing as Canada is a few years behind with things like streaming, I haven't had much of a chance to try it out to compare video and audio quality due to compression.

It does raise an interesting question/issue that some have already eluded to in this thread: The ISPs are often also the cable providers that are providing the bandwidth. The can of worms known as "net neutrality" will surely be opened here in Canada, and I do wonder if we'll see (more) caps on bandwidth. Fortunately Shaw doesn't seem as involved in "traffic shaping" as much as Bell, for example, who have been criticized for it in the past. But now with some viable options for streaming/downloading movies coming to Canada, the game will likely change somewhat.
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:00 AM   #23
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I watch Netflix on a ps3/35mbs internet/60 inch 1080p tv. Quality is okay for most movies. Maybe slightly better than a dvd, compression artifacts are not obvious. You'll never be fooled into thinking you are watching a blue ray, or even HD on demand, but never really distracted by poor quality either.

Movie selection is pretty weak, IMO. Not much from the major studios that is less than 5 years old. Every once in a while I find something I like to see. Good for catching up on old tv shows, if they happen to carry what you are interested in.

Mail service now has a 30 day delay from dvd release, which is making it more and more useless for me.
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:19 AM   #24
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Mail service now has a 30 day delay from dvd release, which is making it more and more useless for me.
Whoa, lame.

I'm assuming that includes BluRay?
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:42 AM   #25
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Honest question - I'm not trying to sound condescending here, but what are the benefits of having physical media mailed to you instead of streaming?
Depends. The copy on the DVD is in the raw. Uncompressed, bit for bit everything that it should be. That tends to be a bigger benefit.

Assuming the streamed copy is in every way, shape, and form an exact duplicate of the DVD? Well then they are equal. Except a physical copy allows me to do something a streamed copy does not. Rip it
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:46 AM   #26
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Keep in mind that Netfilx is bringing streaming only to Canada, so you won't be able to use Netflix as an alternative to Zip for getting DVDs in the mail.

That being said, unless Zip gets on board with a competing streaming service, they could be dead in the water. In a few years, the idea of actually having a physical disc delivered to you in the mail will seem downright awkward because most TVs, consoles, BluRay players, etc. will be able to stream these things right to your living room.
I think it already does considering most people have an internet connection capable of viewing standard DVDs.
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Old 07-19-2010, 10:59 AM   #27
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Depends. The copy on the DVD is in the raw. Uncompressed, bit for bit everything that it should be. That tends to be a bigger benefit.

Assuming the streamed copy is in every way, shape, and form an exact duplicate of the DVD? Well then they are equal. Except a physical copy allows me to do something a streamed copy does not. Rip it
Actually, that's not true. MPEG-2 is a lossy codec and there's plenty of compression going on, most of the time. Compare a supberbit DVD release to the standard one, full of all the extras taking up space, and you'll see what I mean.

That said, the physical copies are always going to be much higher quality that any streaming service.
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:49 AM   #28
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Actually, that's not true. MPEG-2 is a lossy codec and there's plenty of compression going on, most of the time. Compare a supberbit DVD release to the standard one, full of all the extras taking up space, and you'll see what I mean.

That said, the physical copies are always going to be much higher quality that any streaming service.
Always is a pretty strong word.

There are lots of streaming services that are better than dvd now. Some that are getting somewhat close to blu-ray too.
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Old 07-19-2010, 11:57 AM   #29
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Youtube's 1080p is heavily compressed as well.
And Youtube is currently bleeding money as well.
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Old 07-19-2010, 12:07 PM   #30
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I've been waiting for this for a loooong time. While it does have it's disadvantages on the big screen, this has been a must-have ipad app for a while. Very excited for that.
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Old 07-19-2010, 12:27 PM   #31
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I watch streaming video shows a couple of times a week through my computer to my 1080P TV. They don't give an exact rating of the quality but it's better than DVD and satisfactory. Streaming quality is getting better and better and my regular high speed connection has gone up to about 30 Mb/s in the last year too. Someone from Shaw said that fibre optic has been installed in this backwater. Anyways what I'm saying is that technology is changing and improving so quickly that normal ways of doing things through the mail, driving down to a Video store, buying a blu ray player or other hardware, may no longer be needed.
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Old 07-19-2010, 12:52 PM   #32
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Originally Posted by nfotiu View Post
Always is a pretty strong word.

There are lots of streaming services that are better than dvd now. Some that are getting somewhat close to blu-ray too.
You misunderstood. I said the physical copy will always be higher quality than the streamed version. I did not say that a DVD looked better than a high definition stream.

What services are "close" to Blu-Ray quality? I know of services that share a resolution with Blu-Ray, but that says zilch about the video or audio quality.
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Old 07-19-2010, 01:05 PM   #33
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You misunderstood. I said the physical copy will always be higher quality than the streamed version. I did not say that a DVD looked better than a high definition stream.

What services are "close" to Blu-Ray quality? I know of services that share a resolution with Blu-Ray, but that says zilch about the video or audio quality.
That's a little nonsensical though, as streams are rarely going to use a physical media as source.

Vudu hdx, and the xbox 1080p both are getting pretty close to blu ray. I get Verizon VOD via ip over fiber that could be considered streaming, that isn't significantly worse than blu ray.
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Old 07-19-2010, 01:29 PM   #34
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That's a little nonsensical though, as streams are rarely going to use a physical media as source.
I don't understand what you mean here.

I think the point was that physical media will always (or at least for the next while) be better quality than streaming, when comparing apples to apples (high def to high def).

Eventually bandwidth will catch up to be able to stream HD quality stuff, but by that time there'll be 4 times HD stuff in 3D which will require 10 times the connection speed... eventually TV resolution will exceed visual acuity and they'll stop upping the resolution, and bandwidth will catch up, but that's a long way off.

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Vudu hdx, and the xbox 1080p both are getting pretty close to blu ray. I get Verizon VOD via ip over fiber that could be considered streaming, that isn't significantly worse than blu ray.
VUDU HDX is getting much closer, 9Mbps average and 20Mbps bursts, but they're not really streaming, you have to download first which takes a few hours.

Xbox 360's streaming is far lower than that, closer to netflix than VUDU HDX.

Bluray is 40Mbps max, though most movies use somewhat less.. once we get into the 20Mbps average range then we can start saying that streaming is approaching bluray quality.
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Old 07-19-2010, 01:52 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by nfotiu View Post
That's a little nonsensical though, as streams are rarely going to use a physical media as source.

Vudu hdx, and the xbox 1080p both are getting pretty close to blu ray. I get Verizon VOD via ip over fiber that could be considered streaming, that isn't significantly worse than blu ray.
I also never said the stream comes from the retail physical copy... I think I'm being pretty clear about my point: physical media is better quality than streaming. Every time. A DVD is higher quality than a SD stream, and a Blu-Ray is higher quality than an HD stream.

I've heard that Vudu HDX titles have excellent video/audio quality but I thought you had to preload the movie first so I didn't consider it a streaming service. I just googled it and it looks like my info was out of date. From what I've heard it's very close to Blu-Ray video quality, albeit without the HD audio (though DD 5.1 is good enough for a stream). Too bad Vudu doesn't exist outside the states, I'd be all over that.

What service is the XBox 1080p? Is that the Zune service?
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Old 07-19-2010, 02:13 PM   #36
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I don't understand what you mean here.

I think the point was that physical media will always (or at least for the next while) be better quality than streaming, when comparing apples to apples (high def to high def).
Nothing is better than Blu ray is about the only absolute statement to make. 720p24 is really not hd or sd, but is a somewhat popular streaming resolution, and can be better/worse or just different than dvd

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Eventually bandwidth will catch up to be able to stream HD quality stuff, but by that time there'll be 4 times HD stuff in 3D which will require 10 times the connection speed... eventually TV resolution will exceed visual acuity and they'll stop upping the resolution, and bandwidth will catch up, but that's a long way off.



VUDU HDX is getting much closer, 9Mbps average and 20Mbps bursts, but they're not really streaming, you have to download first which takes a few hours.

Xbox 360's streaming is far lower than that, closer to netflix than VUDU HDX.

Bluray is 40Mbps max, though most movies use somewhat less.. once we get into the 20Mbps average range then we can start saying that streaming is approaching bluray quality.
Vudu HDX is streaming now, or some combination of streaming/buffering/dowloading. There is some point of dimishing returns on the bitrate, and the compression codecs are improving all the time. 10mbs if done right and allows for bursts should start to be pretty good for video in most cases.

The PQ is not what's limiting streaming adoption, so much as the studios insistent on the 5-7$/24 hour rentals, which are pretty outrageous compared to what you can do netflixing/redboxing blu rays.
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Old 07-19-2010, 02:25 PM   #37
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I also never said the stream comes from the retail physical copy... I think I'm being pretty clear about my point: physical media is better quality than streaming. Every time. A DVD is higher quality than a SD stream, and a Blu-Ray is higher quality than an HD stream.

I've heard that Vudu HDX titles have excellent video/audio quality but I thought you had to preload the movie first so I didn't consider it a streaming service. I just googled it and it looks like my info was out of date. From what I've heard it's very close to Blu-Ray video quality, albeit without the HD audio (though DD 5.1 is good enough for a stream). Too bad Vudu doesn't exist outside the states, I'd be all over that.
There is nothing technologically preventing a company from offering better than dvd sd, probably safe to say most sd streaming is worse than dvd, there are probably cases out there that this isn't the case.

HDX has DD Plus, while not lossless, it was one of the new hd standards that came with HD DVD.
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Old 07-19-2010, 02:28 PM   #38
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Originally Posted by nfotiu View Post
Nothing is better than Blu ray is about the only absolute statement to make. 720p24 is really not hd or sd, but is a somewhat popular streaming resolution, and can be better/worse or just different than dvd
720p is still considered HD for any kind of classification, but you are right the actual quality depends on other things that just the resolution.


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Vudu HDX is streaming now, or some combination of streaming/buffering/dowloading.
The streaming is still lower quality than the downloaded so I went with the highest quality for the comparison.

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Originally Posted by nfotiu View Post
There is some point of dimishing returns on the bitrate, and the compression codecs are improving all the time. 10mbs if done right and allows for bursts should start to be pretty good for video in most cases.

The PQ is not what's limiting streaming adoption, so much as the studios insistent on the 5-7$/24 hour rentals, which are pretty outrageous compared to what you can do netflixing/redboxing blu rays.
There are diminishing returns for bitrate, but the point where you start seeing them is actually at the blu-ray level (an uncompressed HD signal is actually 3Gbit or something).

And I agree, codecs do improve, and 10Mbps video is probably good for a lot of people. But not everyone, and I think it's important to understand the quality difference.. that's part of the reason they can charge so much is people see "This streams at 1080p" and automatically think it's blu-ray quality.
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Old 07-19-2010, 03:02 PM   #39
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Not being able to stream surround sound is a huge turn off for me. The audio experience of a Blu Ray is one of the main attractions.
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Old 07-20-2010, 03:26 PM   #40
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Xbox 360's streaming is far lower than that, closer to netflix than VUDU HDX.

Bluray is 40Mbps max, though most movies use somewhat less.. once we get into the 20Mbps average range then we can start saying that streaming is approaching bluray quality.
Xbox 360's 1080p files can go up to approximately 10 Mbps (the equivalent of what you would get if you choose to download rather than stream) but can dynamically shift between bitrates and resolutions.
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