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Old 03-10-2017, 11:37 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger View Post
Those people aren't complaining that they have the right to a crappy job. They are complaining that the only way to keep the job is to cheat. The article isn't meant to be a heartfelt piece on these poor saps who hate their jobs. It is meant to showcase that the major canadian financial institutions are encouraging their employees to lie to customers and scam them.

The point is that it is institutionalized and well beyond the individuals.

The individual who is breaking the law is largely irrelevant here. They will just replace you with someone else who will break the rules because their targets are so unrealistic that the only way to meet them is to cheat.
Not really, and that's a HUGE leap to make.

All we can tell from the article is that TD has high expectations for sales targets and that some employees (might be a minority, might be most, we don't know) have been doing illegal things because they thought that was the only way to meet their goals.

Now if TD had a culture where managers were pushing people to do illegal things then that is a MAJOR problem and the bank should be punished. However if this is a case of employees making a decision on their own to do illegal things to meet their targets, then that's a whole other story.
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Old 03-10-2017, 11:43 AM   #42
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Not really, and that's a HUGE leap to make.

All we can tell from the article is that TD has high expectations for sales targets and that some employees (might be a minority, might be most, we don't know) have been doing illegal things because they thought that was the only way to meet their goals.

Now if TD had a culture where managers were pushing people to do illegal things then that is a MAJOR problem and the bank should be punished. However if this is a case of employees making a decision on their own to do illegal things to meet their targets, then that's a whole other story.
I just feel like this kind of thing lets the bank of the hook. In reality, they should have both an ethical and fiduciary responsibility to ensure that their agents are working in the best interests of their clients. Letting them pass this off as a "rogue agent" sort of thing just rubs me the wrong way.
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Old 03-10-2017, 11:44 AM   #43
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Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz View Post
Not really, and that's a HUGE leap to make.

All we can tell from the article is that TD has high expectations for sales targets and that some employees (might be a minority, might be most, we don't know) have been doing illegal things because they thought that was the only way to meet their goals.

Now if TD had a culture where managers were pushing people to do illegal things then that is a MAJOR problem and the bank should be punished. However if this is a case of employees making a decision on their own to do illegal things to meet their targets, then that's a whole other story.

With all due respect, this is incredibly naive thinking on your part.

As I mentioned previously, the entire system is set up to make it easy for staff to cheat but protect the managers and executives. It is really easy to speak in such a way that encourages the behaviour without a manager having to implicate themselves.

And TD is almost certainly aware of the behaviour and turning a blind eye towards it. Easy to publicly deny it and talk about their code of ethics but implicitly both support and enable the behaviour.
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Old 03-10-2017, 11:52 AM   #44
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Financial Times hasn't really been keen on it for quite some time. It is way out of my league, but there seem to be some major security risks associated with blockchain.
There is.

It's in an infancy stage, and I believe in the lifecycle of new "technologies" (there is a good article about it that I had included in some research earlier this year, but I can't remember where I found it) it is, or has recently been, at the "peak" level of hype-over-value. It's now entering/is currently in the phase where problems emerge as the real-world application of it gets tested, and is probably 5-10 years away from emerging as something that could start to really be adopted by the market.

It's by no means perfect or in any way suitable for mass adoption right now, it's still something that needs to be figured out.

Things like blockchain, in my mind, are like medical treatments that worked in the lab. It's exciting and IF it works in real-world applications like it does in it's infancy stage, then it's going to be fantastic. The next part is the hardest though, which involves adapting it to the incredibly complex real world applications on a mass scale, finding the pressure points, and finding ways to strengthen those areas.

My proclamation on blockchain would be:
Is it exciting? Yes.
Should you care (yet)? No.

You could also compare it to something like Uber, which is probably destined to fail in it's current iteration. Even if it ends up failing, the lessons learned from it and the positive elements can (and will) be incorporated into more society-advancing things in the future. Innovation becomes the new standard, etc.

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Old 03-10-2017, 11:54 AM   #45
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TD stocks dropped 5% on this story. Will wake up a few people
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Old 03-10-2017, 12:03 PM   #46
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Originally Posted by Cecil Terwilliger View Post
With all due respect, this is incredibly naive thinking on your part.

As I mentioned previously, the entire system is set up to make it easy for staff to cheat but protect the managers and executives. It is really easy to speak in such a way that encourages the behaviour without a manager having to implicate themselves.

And TD is almost certainly aware of the behaviour and turning a blind eye towards it. Easy to publicly deny it and talk about their code of ethics but implicitly both support and enable the behaviour.
Is it naive or is it responding to the information we have at hand?

I never said that there is no chance TD is directing their people to do this, nor did I say it was impossible they have created a culture where this was expected, even if not outright stated. However, we don't know the real situation is, all we know is that there are a lot of employees who felt that to they had to do these things to meet their targets.

It could be any number of things going on:
1) Bad employees who can't meet reasonable sales targets
2) Unreasonable sales targets that accidentally created a culture where some employees felt they needed to break the rules to meet them
3) Unreasonable sales targets that lead to creating a culture where most employees felt they needed to break the rules to meet them
4) TD using sales targets to intentionally push their employees to break the rules to increase revenues at all costs

Those choices run the gambit from a well governed company with a lack of oversight on it's employees, to a company that doesn't understand it's employees needs/abilities, to outright criminal activity. Saying I'm naive because I'm not jumping to the conclusion that it is the worst of that is a bit much.
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Old 03-10-2017, 12:20 PM   #47
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This isn't an employee issue. It's a culture issue that TD has cultivated. It's always easy for people to say an employee should walk away from his/her job without knowing how many dependents rely on that income and what their prospects of finding another job are. TD management knows full well what high pressure sales tactics may cause employees to do whatever it takes to meet their goals and all they are interested in at the end of the day is the bottom line which is satisfying shareholders.
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Old 03-10-2017, 12:36 PM   #48
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Worked at TD part time back in my university days. Maybe I got a good branch or something, but I had pretty much zero sales target pressure. I'm sure my part-time status had a lot to do with that, but if my few years there I don't think I ever had one conversation with someone who were stressed out about targets, or thought they were doing immoral things to meet sales goals.

Personally, this is just a sensationalist story. All jobs have pressures to meet targets, whether it be sales goals or otherwise. I'm sure there are lots of people in a wide variety of professions where people engage in unethical behaviour in order to meet those targets. It's really up to the employees to have a strong voice and say that things are wrong (not to the media, but directly to their employers).
Was it many years ago, because they've gotten worse. Way worse. I hate banks.
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Old 03-10-2017, 12:39 PM   #49
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This is no different from any business that sells add on products to their main offering.

Go work in retail electronics. Its not selling a computer or stereo or dishwasher that gets you paid and promoted, its the extended warranty.

I mean, I'm old and its been a long time, but when I worked at FS, I was a top performer and moved up the chain not because I sold a ton of computers a year, but because I had a 5% closing rate for their CSP.

We were taught sales techniques and at times you had to make some pretty nebulous statements, and a manager had to approve a sale where the CSP was declined and the manager had to do a second approach.

Looking back on it, sure I learned some interesting sales techniques, but I didn't enjoy sellling it.

Frankly the only areas where the CSP broke even or lost dollars was on big screen projection style TV's and appliances, because frankly all of the other electronics were pretty bullet proof and usually didn't break or fail in three years.

But I could show you value charts etc etc and literally scare you into buying it.

If you look at how commissions worked. If I sold a $2000.00 computer with 10% margin, I would take a third of the profit margin or about 60 bucks.

But if I sold a $500.00 CSP plan on that computer, CSP was pure profit and I'd scoop a third or $150.00. So I would sell it. It would make the difference between making $100.00 a day and $200.00 back in the early 90's which was great money.

And of course the stores competed with each other on CSP. A store with <5% average CSP was an underperformer no matter how much product they sold and managers would dread going to the managers meeting.

I remember that I was good at selling the warranty and they started loaning me from store to store that were struggling, not even to necessarily teach them about it, and I didn't give a crap about helping someone else to learn how to sell it because I wanted a clearer path to promotion. I would go into their store for a month and try to crush everyone and help boost the stores percentage. Then I'd walk out at the end of the month with a smirk and a jerk like and that's how its done grasshopper with a bunch of bucks in my pocket and a hangover from nightly drinking.

Businesses have always been about selling the profitable add ons.

Want to make money on a computer, sell warranty (grease) make them buy some video games for their kids and get an upgrade on a graphics card. Make them buy a crappy printer and a bunch of replacement cartridges and a box of paper. A expensive mouse pad? Sure sure it protects your mouse and looks its the enterprise. Why don't we go take a look at those super expensive speakers.
This is exactly why when I choose to buy electronics I say, "If you even mention the extended warranty I'm leaving the store and you can kiss this sale good-bye."
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Old 03-10-2017, 01:28 PM   #50
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This is exactly why when I choose to buy electronics I say, "If you even mention the extended warranty I'm leaving the store and you can kiss this sale good-bye."
At the same time, one of the few moments of joy when working at FS was when people would come in with broken product and demand a replacement.

Nope sorry, you didn't buy the extended warranty.

And then they'd bluster, but its still under warranty.

It is (sad face) which means that we have to send it to the Samsung authorized repair depot. Which is in Toronto and the repair time is 6 weeks.

And then they'd say they should get a replacement

Well sir if you'd bought the warranty we'd be picking out a shiny new TV right now. Or stereo or Computer. or whatever, but you told our sales person that if he mentioned the warranty again that you would leave.

It did come around once in a while.

Its funny because when your in retail sales as a young person you don't start cynical or with a hatred of people. But years of taking abuse from people that think they're better then you or smarter then you and think that its ok to swear at you or yell at you or talk down at you does tend to change a person.

People in restaurants spit in Hamburgers, people in retail electronic stores live for that opportunity to basically in a nice way tell a abusive idiot to go F himself and there's nothing that can be done except send their product away to get fixed.

I almost get misty thinking about it. Because the person that comes into your store looking for a fight, well no one is going to go out of their way to help them, and we don't give a crap about selling him or her anything else.
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Old 03-10-2017, 02:16 PM   #51
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Well sir if you'd bought the warranty we'd be picking out a shiny new TV right now. Or stereo or Computer. or whatever, but you told our sales person that if he mentioned the warranty again that you would leave.
I hope you didn't actually say that to people.

Sorry, I don't post often so hopefully this works, if not skip to 38 seconds

https://youtu.be/s4ZwqPa9mnU?t=38s

Edit: can't work the youtube

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Old 03-10-2017, 02:20 PM   #52
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Was it many years ago, because they've gotten worse. Way worse. I hate banks.
Yeah, it was around 8 or 9 years ago now, so lots could have changed since then. I still think it's a branch by branch thing though, and the idea that every TD across Canada is like this is a bit far fetched based on my experience.
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Old 03-10-2017, 03:39 PM   #53
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I recently noticed my CIBC credit limit was increased without me asking for it. Did someone break the law?
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Old 03-10-2017, 04:10 PM   #54
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As an independent financial planner the banks are my competition and I hate them because of crap like this. And coercive tied selling, which is illegal according to the Bank Act. I know they do it regularly and I had an incident recently. I see them enticing clients to take products they don't want and should not have, taking on more debt than they can handle and using other unethical practices. I blame both the company and the employee, although I sort of understand when an employee wants to protect his/her job. I couldn't look myself in the mirror. A family member works for a bank and is on stress leave because of these pressures.

Banks are evil and need to be called on these things. It's not just TD, but all banks. I'd love for the bank (and near-bank) employees in this thread to try to justify this.
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Old 03-10-2017, 04:48 PM   #55
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When I was young and naive I thought the banks were good and promoted sound personal fiscal practices. Now that I am old and jade I know they are business out to make a buck. All their financial advisors that I have met are complete idiots that only know how to click you through a superficial questionnaire before trying to sell you under performing over priced mutual funds.
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Old 03-10-2017, 04:59 PM   #56
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I recently noticed my CIBC credit limit was increased without me asking for it. Did someone break the law?
Yes, the government added new regulations a while back on credit cards:

1) your bills need to have a calculator showing you how many years it would take you to pay off your balance by only paying the minimum payment amount

2) they cannot give you a higher credit limit without your permission
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Old 03-10-2017, 05:00 PM   #57
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Yes, the government added new regulations a while back on credit cards:

1) your bills need to have a calculator showing you how many years it would take you to pay off your balance by only paying the minimum payment amount

2) they cannot give you a higher credit limit without your permission
Pfft!

What would you know?!?
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Old 03-10-2017, 05:18 PM   #58
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I hope you didn't actually say that to people.

Sorry, I don't post often so hopefully this works, if not skip to 38 seconds

https://youtu.be/s4ZwqPa9mnU?t=38s

Edit: can't work the youtube
Well, in my experience, nobody wants the warranty more than the guy who turned it down, and now needs a $7000 transmission or a new engine. We sell OEM warranty here from the manufacturer, and no matter what you tell some people, they assume it is a massive scam of some sort, while it's essentially the exact same thing.

I have had this exact conversation in our dealership:

Customer: "My engine needs replacement, it's $8500 what are you going to do to help?"

Me: "How many kilometers on the car?"

Customer: "130,0000 kms."

Me: "Let me check our records <pulls file and comes back 10 minutes later>. It looks like you were offered a 10 year 200k warranty, but signed the waiver and declined it, I'm sorry, the mileage will be too far out to get you an exception."

Customer: "If I knew this was going to happen I would have bought it. This is BS, expletive, expletive, expletive. You fataing suck at your fataing job. Fata you!"

You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. You try and sell it, and you're too pushy, you're not pushy enough, and you are somehow responsible for someone rolling the dice and getting stung. I don't get satisfaction one bit out of it, because now you've lost a customer. But one thing I always did, is keep redacted copies of some major big ticket repairs we have done under the extension, and use those in an evidence manual.
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Old 03-10-2017, 06:02 PM   #59
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Well, in my experience, nobody wants the warranty more than the guy who turned it down, and now needs a $7000 transmission or a new engine. We sell OEM warranty here from the manufacturer, and no matter what you tell some people, they assume it is a massive scam of some sort, while it's essentially the exact same thing.

I have had this exact conversation in our dealership:

Customer: "My engine needs replacement, it's $8500 what are you going to do to help?"

Me: "How many kilometers on the car?"

Customer: "130,0000 kms."

Me: "Let me check our records <pulls file and comes back 10 minutes later>. It looks like you were offered a 10 year 200k warranty, but signed the waiver and declined it, I'm sorry, the mileage will be too far out to get you an exception."

Customer: "If I knew this was going to happen I would have bought it. This is BS, expletive, expletive, expletive. You fataing suck at your fataing job. Fata you!"

You're damned if you do, damned if you don't. You try and sell it, and you're too pushy, you're not pushy enough, and you are somehow responsible for someone rolling the dice and getting stung. I don't get satisfaction one bit out of it, because now you've lost a customer. But one thing I always did, is keep redacted copies of some major big ticket repairs we have done under the extension, and use those in an evidence manual.
Do you track the dollar amount of warranties that go unused as well?
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Old 03-10-2017, 07:16 PM   #60
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Sorry, no you were not. You could work somewhere else.

I worked in Automotive finance for years, you want to talk about being pressured to sell products? And the potential ramifications of losing your job were way more dire, as the automotive community is small and the stakes are much higher as far as income went. I took a 7 month break and tried the RV business. The money was better, but it seemed too sketchy, so I went back to my old employer. It's pretty simple. If you don't like what you are being asked to do, find another employer or career path. It's not like there is a shortage of banks to work at.

And in all, if I felt morally compromised in anything anyone asked me to do, I simply said no. Want to fire me, go ahead. I still have to sleep at night. My conscious trumps any career. Thankfully I work for a dealer that was always above board, but there have been certain products we have been asked to offer that could have easily boosted my numbers, that I refused to sell, as I felt they were of little or no value to my customers. I never had industry best numbers, but I always had happy customers, top level CSI, and people that came back for second, third and fourth purchases.

So no. None of these people were forced to do anything. They chose to do these things to get a bigger pay cheque first and foremost. TD may have/had a boiler room mentality, but the door is right over there if you don't like the culture or ethics.
This is all and dandy when you're taking in $100,000 plus and have for years and have some money in the bank to put your morals before your job but most TD employees couldn't survive not having their job for long. It's a low paying job as is, please don't let your own life experiences speak for these people.

Not trying to be a dick as I do respect you but you're a finance person at a major dealership, one of probably only several dozen jobs in the city, if that. Of course it's easy for you to say " if you don't like the job, there's the door" but if you're a single mother like the woman I know who works at TD, then "the door" means homelessness for her and her daughter not a couple hundred thousand in the bank until they find another job.
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