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Old 03-20-2017, 09:59 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by curves2000 View Post
Don't fall sucker to things like life and disability insurance coverage on any lending products. These insurance products don't offer much in the way of protection, have really high premiums for the coverage involved. If you need actual insurance coverage, call a licensed insurance broker to underwrite a policy for things such as disability/ life insurance. Insurance is important but the stuff offered at the dealership isn't great. I can go into details in another thread about why.
The first time I bought a vehicle from a dealer I fell sucker to all the add-ons. They sold me on sound proofing, rust proofing, etc. Even when they were pitching those to me I was like "This can't be a thing", but I fell for it anyway. Never again.

Actually, only that one time did I buy from a dealer. I got my first car when I was 18 and in 20+ years, I've had bought 4 vehicles, three for me and one for my wife. I did go into a couple of dealers a few years ago when I was looking to buy a new car and I got serious about one but I walked away because they wouldn't negotiate price, and financing was going to cost me substantially more than the sticker price, so I said I need a better price or I go, they called my bluff, but I wasn't bluffing.

I wound up getting a great deal a couple months later when my employer had to sell the company car which was done via sealed envelope auction for staff to purchase. The minimum bid had to be what the company was offered for trade-in, which was $8200, and comparable prices to purchase from dealers or kijiji were around $12,000-$13,000.
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:38 AM   #42
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Price available only to Costco members
Advertised prices at both Ford dealerships visited were available only to Costco members, but their ads didnít always disclose that. Everyone else pays $1,000 more. If you think you can just go over and sign up at a Costco store, youíre mistaken. The membership has to predate the dealerís promotion. The APA has encountered this misleading practice at Ford dealerships more frequently in Calgary than any other city.
We used this Costco thing with my car purchase, and it was probably one of the first things that we covered, first with the salesman, then with the finance department. They both made sure we had a Costco membership that predated the promotion, before proceeding, which of course we did, because we've been Costco members since 1999 or something. To be completely honest, I did none of the negotiating, I wasn't even there. I just told them what I wanted, they found the vehicle, my husband did the rest, because I wasn't able to leave my job to go in on the hours available, to haggle or deal. I don't recall seeing any documentation fees in any of the paperwork I signed, and I checked it over prior to signing my name. However, I'd imagine that may have something to do with the fact that my husband worked at the dealership we purchased from so....
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Old 03-20-2017, 11:45 AM   #43
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And I fully acknowledge, I'm so screwed if I ever have to negotiate on my own, LOL. I have no idea how to do it. With my car, I just said "I want this color, I don't care about trim packages really, don't care about rims, blah blah blah, I just want this color, no doohickey thing on the trunk (I have a Fusion), I want this color interior and I want leather, I want AC, Sync, no fabric mats, and a moonroof or sunroof. That's all I want or care about, make it happen, give us the price and we'll tell you if it works for us or we just won't buy" - it was neither here nor there to me to purchase right then and there, or at all really, so I just told my husband when he negotiated, it better be amenable and work for us within our terms or I just didn't care and wouldn't buy, that it could wait. I ended up with what I wanted, and everything worked for us/me, within our terms, so it was good, in the end. But I was never married to the idea of purchasing immediately or even that car that they showed me, even though I liked it. It was one of those instances, where we figured we'd downsize from a family van to a sedan, because we had kids out of the house and didn't need a van, really, but would have happily carried on with the van if we'd been unable to settle a deal to our satisfaction, with the vehicle we/I wanted.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:35 PM   #44
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In the past I've used a paid service to find my new cars. Now I really like the idea of emailing multiple dealerships to find the best price. And now I have a better idea of how to deal with the add-on charges. I'll leave my wife out of that part as she's an easy mark. I hate car buying.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:54 PM   #45
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Emailing dealerships is how I've bought my last two vehicles. I'd never do it any other way now.

Almost no hassle. I make it clear that I am talking all-in costs (including taxes). I have them send me the forms via email before I go in to sign them, if there are any extra charges/fees, I tell them to remove them or reduce the cost of the vehicle to cover it.

You can look up the dealership's cost online nowadays, you can add in a reasonable markup for profit and make an offer to every dealership in Alberta based on that. It takes an hour of your life, and you reach every dealer that you want.

Anyone who is going over to a dealership and threatening to leave/leaving multiple times before signing a deal has only themselves to blame nowadays.
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Old 03-20-2017, 12:57 PM   #46
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Just curious what a "reasonable markup for profit" is. $1000? 5%?
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Old 03-20-2017, 01:24 PM   #47
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I'm too lazy to read through the past few posts, but Re: addons (Sound proofing, rust inhibitors etc, diamond coat, etc).

It's all pointless to get these on a brand new vehicle. Brand new vehicles already have all this put on it. Not only this, dealers mark it up over 400%. Also, in Calgary weather, you're car is going to feel the effects of weather/salt etc. There's nothing you can do about that other than wash your car. Lastly, the average expectancy of ownership of a car is 4 years. When your car starts to rust etc, it will be outside of this timeframe, so why are you paying for it? My source is my cousin too, who's family owns an autobody shop.

Another note. You want 3M? Don't buy from a dealer, unless they're willing to match the costs from a 3rd party. You can get full set of 3M for under $400 from a 3rd party, easily.
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Old 03-20-2017, 01:37 PM   #48
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Just curious what a "reasonable markup for profit" is. $1000? 5%?
I've used 3% and been successful... however that 3% is over the listed invoice price minus incentives, but for most dealerships there are hidden incentives to the dealer from the company that you can't (and probably shouldn't try to) negotiate.

I hate car buying. My last experience on the 'final' offer back from them, the sales manager took my offer and added 1 cent to the price. I was very close to telling them to fata off at that moment. It's been a long time since I wanted to punch someone over something seemingly trivial.

Such a frustrating experience.

And I'm going to have to redo it all over again soon. I'm taking the advice about emailing. I don't have any more energy to get so angry about things. I've read the sales managers hate email shoppers, but to be honest, that's the way things have gotten because of all these bad experiences have soured people so thoroughly.
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Old 03-20-2017, 01:49 PM   #49
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I've had good success using Car Cost Canada for my truck, and well, our Tesla was the best way to buy imo. Build the car with features and colors you want. 2 months later a truck shows up to drop off the car. No middleman car dealership.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:07 PM   #50
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Originally Posted by Canehdianman;6178327[B
]Emailing dealerships is how I've bought my last two vehicles. I'd never do it any other way now.[/B]

Almost no hassle. I make it clear that I am talking all-in costs (including taxes). I have them send me the forms via email before I go in to sign them, if there are any extra charges/fees, I tell them to remove them or reduce the cost of the vehicle to cover it.

You can look up the dealership's cost online nowadays, you can add in a reasonable markup for profit and make an offer to every dealership in Alberta based on that. It takes an hour of your life, and you reach every dealer that you want.

Anyone who is going over to a dealership and threatening to leave/leaving multiple times before signing a deal has only themselves to blame nowadays.
I've had zero success with this. Probably 9/10 dealerships didn't even bother to reply to my email and of the ones that did, none wanted to deal via email. It was all 'come on down and let's talk', which I completely understand from their point of view - that is exactly what they want you to do but it was not at all what I wanted to do. So I just ignored those ones. But that left actually going to the dealership and going through all the associated BS as the only way to do it.

I really wish they would make it easier to buy online. It seems vehicle sales are very reluctant to go this way despite just every other retailer doing it.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:16 PM   #51
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That shocks me a little bit. We've been using e-mail (and/or Truecar) for our last 4 vehicle purchases. Usually have dealerships even up to 4 hours drive away eager to do business that I wouldn't do it any other way. I bought my car a couple weeks ago now. I started the "negotiation" portion of things two days before driving the car off the lot. I used trucar and contacted other dealership as far away as St. Louis (4.5 h drive) and within 3 hours I had those 7 firm offers from 7 different dealerships. A Bentonville area dealership won the business. Maybe doesn't work as well in Canada I don't know.

I know people who have had dealerships do a bait and switch from e-mail to showing up in person but I make it clear from the initial contact that such things will result in me immediately walking out. Tell them your goal is to have this specific car (options, colour etc included), tell them to give their best offer because the hassle of negotiation is an unnecessary annoyance that will cause me to walk away immediately and I find they generally come back to you with immediately good offers that you can take or leave. Not all of them (see earlier post) but enough to know you are likely not going to do much better than the offer that wins. Everytime a couple of dealerships have been far and away the winners. And that's been with Honda, Volvo, Subaru and Nissan.

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Old 03-20-2017, 02:36 PM   #52
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So much misinformation in this thread, first with the APA story then followed up by "advice" which is either wrong or on accurate. IF you have any real questions or would like some real advice please pm me or I'll try to respond to any replies.

First off the Dealers are free and clear to charge whatevr the heck they want for a doc fee provided that the total price does not exceed the advertised price (this is on the APA web site somewhere in the small print). Meaning that an ad says $19995, the dealer can reduce the price $600, add in a $400 doc fee, $6.25 AMVIC $100 A/C tax and $20 tire levy $526.25 giving an all in price of $19916.25 which is less then the advertised price and is completely legal.

From a dealers perspective buying new and used are two totally different cans of worms. Used is very straight forward but with new the rebates from the manufacturer to the dealer play a huge part in the pricing. Dealers can hide the rebates in the trade (inflate the value), take them off the price or not disclose or include them at all (profit!!!). As well rates rebates and incnetives change each month and its up to the dealers to apply them, therefore letting human error run its course.

I belief it was mentioned earlier but far and away the biggest problem with the auto indusrty are dealers burrying customers in high interest (30% is not out of the question) loans that take years and years to payoff. The stories I see on a weekly basis are astounding. These are either "payment shoppers" or customeres with bad/ no credit or a combination of both, and they often fall for teh "$5000 cash back" crap. They work with sub prime lenders and take on customers who would not otherwise get financing. As a Sales guy at a very reputable, full disclosure dealership, 30% of our deals do not go through do to poor credit. The "We Finance Everyone" dealers are a huge problem.

May post more but i have to fill up a new diesel a customer is picking up in 1/2 hour. Will address email, internet shopping as well... and how the best practises for internet selling are changing.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:49 PM   #53
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Just curious what a "reasonable markup for profit" is. $1000? 5%?
I usually started around 2-3%, but it does depend on make. I was looking for a Ford truck in my last purchase, and there are a bazillion Ford dealerships around.

if you were looking for something rarer, like a Subaru or a Porsche, then you might have to start higher.
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Old 03-20-2017, 02:51 PM   #54
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I've had zero success with this. Probably 9/10 dealerships didn't even bother to reply to my email and of the ones that did, none wanted to deal via email. It was all 'come on down and let's talk', which I completely understand from their point of view - that is exactly what they want you to do but it was not at all what I wanted to do. So I just ignored those ones. But that left actually going to the dealership and going through all the associated BS as the only way to do it.

I really wish they would make it easier to buy online. It seems vehicle sales are very reluctant to go this way despite just every other retailer doing it.
I made it explicitly clear in my email that I wasn't going to go down in person until it was time to sign the documents and drive away. You are right though, I only got responses from about 40% of dealerships, but that was more than enough to get some competitive quotes.
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Old 03-21-2017, 03:07 AM   #55
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I've had good success using Car Cost Canada for my truck, and well, our Tesla was the best way to buy imo. Build the car with features and colors you want. 2 months later a truck shows up to drop off the car. No middleman car dealership.
This - I have purchased lots of new vehicles over the years, two in the last 18 months. Car Cost Canada has provided solid figures to negotiate with. While I quite enjoy the challenge of 'getting the best deal' it is time consuming and takes a lot of effort.

That brings to me to Tesla - truly the future model for new car sales. With the internet you do not need old fashioned 'stealerships' to sell you a car. Once other car manufacturers realize the Tesla sales model has got it right, the better life will be for the majority of new car buyers IMHO.
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Old 03-22-2017, 09:30 AM   #56
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Perhaps you guys are having all these issues because you didn't tell em' Lanny sent you.
I've been telling them "Joe" sent me! Oops.
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Old 03-22-2017, 09:39 AM   #57
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I've been telling them "Joe" sent me! Oops.
I used Car Cost for my Rav4. High River Toyota was their recommended dealer and the sales manager contacted me. Did all the negotiation through email, and paid like 2.5% over Car Cost invoice less rebates. (Cash purchase)

Super easy.
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Old 03-22-2017, 03:17 PM   #58
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I have never bought a new car ever. I've just never really been able to justify the payments. I get it, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with buying new cars at all, but I find it a tad amusing how much energy people spend getting every last cent off the price of the car when it will depreciate 30% on delivery.

Just a weird thought that popped into my head reading this thread.

Oh ya, and I have bought used off a dealer a few times and had to ask them to take the document fee off the final paperwork. No issue either time but annoying for sure. The other tha bugged me was they had etched all the glass and serialized all the panels and tried to sell me the security package. No thanks.
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Old 03-23-2017, 01:19 AM   #59
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I have never bought a new car ever. I've just never really been able to justify the payments. I get it, and I'm not saying there's anything wrong with buying new cars at all, but I find it a tad amusing how much energy people spend getting every last cent off the price of the car when it will depreciate 30% on delivery.
I always find this statement amusing. While not completely inaccurate in the general sense, it's not like there is a marketplace for cars right off the lot with 1 day ownership for 30% off.

In reality, if you were to immediately sell a brand new car after getting it home, the depreciation would be a few % pts.. Why wouldn't someone buy a brand new car and save a bit of money!
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Old 03-23-2017, 07:35 AM   #60
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Figured I'd post my experience a few years ago from my purchase.

http://forum.calgarypuck.com/showthread.php?t=127818

Essentially, used Car Cost Canada to get cost value and find any incentives that were being offered. Offered cost + tax, settled at cost + 3% (which most dealers will accept). Negotiated a few add ons within reason. Keep in mind, parts and sales are essentially two COMPLETELY different entities in a dealer. So even though you are negotiating for add ons (floor mats, etc), the sales people have to negotiate with the parts department, or already know what the parts department can do.

I forgot to add to my original post on this, but they tried to do an 11th hour change on us when we were going to sign (add document costs and few others, essentially adding 200-300 bucks more). While not the end of the world, we were pretty ticked at that. The finance manager started asking if we were willing to let the deal fall apart on such small things. I got up and told them to pound sand, and I would take my business to another dealer who has more integrity. Before I was able to walk out the door, they reluctantly took it off and I signed for the original amount.

Moral of the story, as I've said previously in this thread, be prepared to walk away for even $1 more than you were prepared to pay for. If they can agree on the price before, then there is ZERO reason they can't after.
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