American Politics Thread: Orange is the new POTUS

[peter12]

Originally Posted by oldschoolcalgary

lol exactly...

the American people wanted to get out of Iraq; they were tired of that quagmire and saw no real end in sight.

Its funny how some GOP supporters blame Obama for Isil... its like they have no understanding of how that history actually developed?

Sad, but not surprised, as they tend to let dogma and ideology blind them to, you know, facts.

I pity those who simply aren't bright enough for critical thinking or suffer from extreme cognitive dissonance... but for those that are actively ignoring the facts because of ideology? Loathe those ####ers

I mean, Obama really did not do a great job in formulating a decent foreign policy throughout his 8 years. It is ideological to believe he did.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by peter12

I mean, Obama really did not do a great job in formulating a decent foreign policy throughout his 8 years. It is ideological to believe he did.

Yeah, useless bombings in Syria, dropping the biggest non nuclear bomb in history to take out 61 or so maybe Isis members, and provoking NKorea is solid foreign policy.
Also defeating Isis in the first 30 days in office was a cool trick.
Flip flopping on NATO was good too.
All solid stuff.
Of course, when congress tied his hands, it is definitely his fault.
Also, when Iraq tells you to get out, like the agreement said, well, that's his fault too.

[hummdeedoo]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

He also promised to bring back the men's girdle industry!

You just know that if he saw this the only thing he'd care about is that he looks chubby in his golf get-up. Vain!

I think Chubby left a loooong time ago - I didn't know he was so misshapen -that ass is huge

I know they are only still shots but that swing looks god awful.

[nik-]

Claiming Obama's policy wasn't great isn't stating Trump's is good.

Stop it.

[DuffMan]

Or attacking the wrong country on the advice of god, solid foreign policy

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by peter12

I mean, Obama really did not do a great job in formulating a decent foreign policy throughout his 8 years. It is ideological to believe he did.

Limited non-interventionism was a great foreign policy based on the dogma of the previous administration. I'm curious what you believe he should have done, so far as creating policy? (this should be entertaining)

[nik-]

The problem is you don't just base a foreign policy on countering dogma of a previous administration. You base it on the actual situation.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by nik-

The problem is you don't just base a foreign policy on countering dogma of a previous administration. You base it on the actual situation.

Like this?


Donald J. Trump‏ @realDonaldTrump

AGAIN, TO OUR VERY FOOLISH LEADER, DO NOT ATTACK SYRIA - IF YOU DO MANY VERY BAD THINGS WILL HAPPEN & FROM THAT FIGHT THE U.S. GETS NOTHING!
7:20 AM · Sep 5, 2013

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nik-

The problem is you don't just base a foreign policy on countering dogma of a previous administration. You base it on the actual situation.

And Obama did just that. When you have an extreme foreign policy from the previous administration you have to make a substantial correction based on that previous foreign policy. The Obama shift to the middle was completely expected and not out of the norm. Trump's shift is currently taking place, but at this point no one has any idea where he is going with his policy or whether it has any substance.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by New Era

And Obama did just that. When you have an extreme foreign policy from the previous administration you have to make a substantial correction based on that previous foreign policy. The Obama shift to the middle was completely expected and not out of the norm. Trumps shift is currently taking place, but at this point no one has any idea where he going with his policy or whether it has any substance.

Actually, responsible foreign policy would be not just exiting a tinderbox because it's what the general electorate wants. What you're citing is populist foreign policy.

Obama having poor foreign policy and Trump being a total moron are two things that can be true without conflict.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nik-

Actually, responsible foreign policy would be not just exiting a tinderbox because it's what the general electorate wants. What you're citing is populist foreign policy.

Obama having poor foreign policy and Trump being a total moron are two things that can be true without conflict.

What the hell are you even talking about???

You need to explain what you think Obama's foreign policy is/was.

[nik-]

I think my post was pretty easy to follow.

Radically different doesn't directly equate to good.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nik-

I think my post was pretty easy to follow.

Radically different doesn't directly equate to good.

Wow, how Peterish of you. Asked for specifics, you dodge with a claim that you said something you didn't. You're post was void of details other than to point out Obamas policy was different from Trump's (and vice versa), which at this point is not based on anything other than using the military to make random attacks without any semblance of a plan. So please, explain what you think Obama's policy was, because I don't believe you have a clue what his foreign policy was, nor what Donald Trump's is.

[nik-]

I mean what details do you want? I'm not privy to the stated foreign policy of the Obama administration. The result, however, was consistent hesitance to intervene as a result of a fear of everything turning into an Iraq. They were too blinding by "getting out" (on a Bush timeline btw) instead of taking an honest accounting of the realities in the places they were trying to get out of.

In the end it doesn't matter what their intended foreign policy was, because we can look at the results and rationally claim that it was not successful because there's only one situation they left better than it was when they came into office. If their actual policy was just to walk away from everything and not get involved regardless of the consequences, then I'm sorry, that's just another addition to the faults.

Again, no one is commending Trump's foreign policy here, please stop trying to desperately tie criticism of a segment of Obama's administration with approval of Trump's policy.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by nik-

Actually, responsible foreign policy would be not just exiting a tinderbox because it's what the general electorate wants. What you're citing is populist foreign policy.
.

It's what Iraq wanted and withdrawal was what was agreed upon between the 2 governements, before obama got there.
If they had stayed it would have been an occcupation.
Is that the kind of smart foreign policy you guys would applaud?

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Here's the graph.

Good time to quote this.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

It's what Iraq wanted and withdrawal was what was agreed upon between the 2 governements, before obama got there.
If they had stayed it would have been an occcupation.
Is that the kind of smart foreign policy you guys would applaud?

If they can't get agreement to an extension, they can't, but clearly the Iraqi government wasn't ready to govern and the Iraqi army wasn't ready to secure. The army portion isn't even hindsight. A stronger attempt at an extension would have at least shown an indication that they weren't just leaving in spite of the situation on the ground.

8 years in is also a little late to start getting morals about occupation.

It's too bad that we can't just go back to the beginning and just break the country into separate states from the get go. It's probably the only long term solution.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by peter12

I mean, Obama really did not do a great job in formulating a decent foreign policy throughout his 8 years. It is ideological to believe he did.

except I never said Obama did a 'great' job.

Far from it... however, placing blame for things like the birth of ISIS on Obama, like Dear President is wont to do, is flat out wrong...

That doesn't mean Obama didn't contribute to its metastasizing... but ISIS was already well underway by the time Obama got there.

As for Syria, there's a lot more to discuss there.

A LOT... and it doesn't fall into a simple black and white answer

[peter12]

This thread is not enjoyable to post in.

[Lanny_McDonald]

Originally Posted by nik-

I mean what details do you want? I'm not privy to the stated foreign policy of the Obama administration.

Lame. You don't have to be privy to the "stated" foreign policy to interpret what the foreign policy is.

The result, however, was consistent hesitance to intervene as a result of a fear of everything turning into an Iraq. They were too blinding by "getting out" (on a Bush timeline btw) instead of taking an honest accounting of the realities in the places they were trying to get out of.

This is obviously well beyond your understanding. Obama had no control over the timeline for leaving Iraq. That was on Bush. Once that agreement had been reached it was on the Iraqi government to change any timeline and they wanted the Americans out of the country ASAP. They could have taken any accounting they wanted, but the reality was they had to be out by a certain date and that was negotiated before Obama took office.

In the end it doesn't matter what their intended foreign policy was, because we can look at the results and rationally claim that it was not successful because there's only one situation they left better than it was when they came into office. If their actual policy was just to walk away from everything and not get involved regardless of the consequences, then I'm sorry, that's just another addition to the faults.

Or, we can look at the policy and view it as a success. Obama's foreign policy was based on multilateralism and building coalitions to find solutions. But if you knew what the administration's philosophy on the foreign policy was you would be able to explain this. You clearly don't.

Again, no one is commending Trump's foreign policy here, please stop trying to desperately tie criticism of a segment of Obama's administration with approval of Trump's policy.

And I haven't done anything like that. I have called out your simplistic and uniformed view of foreign policy. Big difference. Now, if you can articulate the Trump foreign policy we could do an actual comparison. Actually, if you can articulate the Trump foreign policy you may be the first person on the planet to have a clue WTF Trump is doing in this regard.