Edmonton Christian school: LGBQT's have mental illnesses

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Flames_Gimp

I just suggested that it's weird to me, that people believe in what is, in my opinion, children's stories. I still understand anyone has the right to believe what they want. Whatever makes you happy go for it, I'm not stopping you.

So what things do you believe that aren't grounded in fact?

[Illuminaughty]

Originally Posted by Fozzie_DeBear

Dude, religion isn't going anywhere until our DNA is tweaked. We, as a species, are hard wired to join a tribe and let other people tell us what is right and wrong. And since this is the way people are wired, there will always be people who are willing to tell people what God wants...for a fee of some kind of course.

There may be an exceptional group that, due to their religious beliefs, make a difference in reducing the suffering of humanity. Kudos to them. There are others who humbly seek individual enlightenment and dedicate themselves to this peaceful purpose. Kudos to them too.

However, other religious people are going through the motions or even worse are using religion to justify obnoxious behaviour.

So no-one is going to get me to believe that humanity is going to throw religion away, even if it wanted to. It's baked in. The best we can hope for is enlightened leadership that inspires people to act altruistically.

Well I think that's the problem with putting blind faith in anything, whether it's a leader, Religion or belief system. It binds you to those constructs. Yes, we all do want to have a place where we feel we are welcomed and belong, but I think we can make a better attempt presently at not being consumed by these constructs and using it justify horrible acts against others.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Dion

Why is it a concern of yours?

If it gives someone purpose and meaning we should be happy for them. I have a friend who is a Mormon and while I disagree strongly with their beliefs I can see how it's had a positive effect on their life.

How does your friend feel about lbgt people? Do fictional characters give him/Her the meaning and purpose of hating and discriminating against people?

That's the gist of this thread.

[Makarov]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

How does your friend feel about lbgt people? Do fictional characters give him/Her the meaning and purpose of hating and discriminating against people?

That's the gist of this thread.

I think that it's important to distinguish between beliefs and actions. People are free to believe whatever they like. The state should only intervene when someone acts in a way that causes an adverse effect for a person or group of people due to a protected characteristic.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I think that it's important to distinguish between beliefs and actions. People are free to believe whatever they like. The state should only intervene when someone acts in a way that causes an adverse effect for a person or group of people due to a protected characteristic.

Good thing they stepped in to save them witches from being hung.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Illuminaughty

This shows that you have a very basic understanding of what Religion is. Religion created stability. Priests were some of the first scientists and science has no greater friend then Religion. Are some practices out of date, of course. Are some of the "fairy-tales" not scientifically accurate, Of course, but that's not the point, the point is the lessons that can be learned from these stories and allegories and applied to a persons life that will enrich it, the people around them and ultimately civilized societies.

Most atheist's or anti-Religion types only focus on the bad things associated, and neglect the good. Sad.

Wut? Please try to come across as less than an apologist, its embarrassing to listen to the drivel to be honest.
There is/was simply no greater enemy to science than religion, any position that assumes otherwise is simply mistaken. The world would be far more advanced today if we had allowed scientists to speak openly, study openly without fear of religious annihilation. If that's a friend I think Ill pass. "To this day" Creationists in well educated countries like the USA continue to espouse biblical authority over actual science. Thats MORE than out of date, that is backwards, closed minded and born completely of the tribalism that you speak of.
Lessons in the bible aren't written by a "God"<sic>, they are man made fables that are stolen from societies before them. The idea that it is wrong to kill, rape, etc etc etc is not a "religious" idiom, it is inherent in all of us from birth.
Religious enrichment? Maybe the art and the music if those are something that floats your boat, it is more like religious indoctrination. How about we try a society or tribal path that doesn't allow the indoctrination of children to believe in their grandparents choice of fairy tale without fear of an everlasting hellfire? Or is that enrichment?
What was done 2000 years ago simply does not apply anymore outside of the historicity of our ancestors, and what they did right or wrong.

With primitive man it is above all fear that evokes religious notions - fear of hunger, wild beasts, sickness, death. Since at this stage of existence understanding of causal connections is usually poorly developed, the human mind creates illusory beings more or less analogous to itself on whose wills and actions these fearful happenings depend. Thus one tries to secure the favor of these beings by carrying out actions and offering sacrifices which, according to the tradition handed down from generation to generation, propitiate them or make them well disposed toward a mortal. In this sense I am speaking of a religion of fear. This, though not created, is in an important degree stabilized by the formation of a special priestly caste which sets itself up as a mediator between the people and the beings they fear, and erects a hegemony on this basis. In many cases a leader or ruler or a privileged class whose position rests on other factors combines priestly functions with its secular authority in order to make the latter more secure; or the political rulers and the priestly caste make common cause in their own interests.

We thus arrive at a conception of the relation of science to religion very different from the usual one. When one views the matter historically, one is inclined to look upon science and religion as irreconcilable antagonists, and for a very obvious reason. The man who is thoroughly convinced of the universal operation of the law of causation cannot for a moment entertain the idea of a being who interferes in the course of events - provided, of course, that he takes the hypothesis of causality really seriously. He has no use for the religion of fear and equally little for social or moral religion. A God who rewards and punishes is inconceivable to him for the simple reason that a man's actions are determined by necessity, external and internal, so that in God's eyes he cannot be responsible, any more than an inanimate object is responsible for the motions it undergoes. Science has therefore been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hopes of reward after death.

It is therefore easy to see why the churches have always fought science and persecuted its devotees.On the other hand, I maintain that the cosmic religious feeling is the strongest and noblest motive for scientific research. Only those who realize the immense efforts and, above all, the devotion without which pioneer work in theoretical science cannot be achieved are able to grasp the strength of the emotion out of which alone such work, remote as it is from the immediate realities of life, can issue. What a deep conviction of the rationality of the universe and what a yearning to understand, were it but a feeble reflection of the mind revealed in this world, Kepler and Newton must have had to enable them to spend years of solitary labor in disentangling the principles of celestial mechanics! Those whose acquaintance with scientific research is derived chiefly from its practical results easily develop a completely false notion of the mentality of the men who, surrounded by a skeptical world, have shown the way to kindred spirits scattered wide through the world and through the centuries. Only one who has devoted his life to similar ends can have a vivid realization of what has inspired these men and given them the strength to remain true to their purpose in spite of countless failures. It is cosmic religious feeling that gives a man such strength. A contemporary has said, not unjustly, that in this materialistic age of ours the serious scientific workers are the only profoundly religious people.

- Albert Einstein

[OMG!WTF!]

Originally Posted by Makarov

I think that it's important to distinguish between beliefs and actions. People are free to believe whatever they like. The state should only intervene when someone acts in a way that causes an adverse effect for a person or group of people due to a protected characteristic.

I don't think it is that important outside of a court room. I judge people all the time on their beliefs because the distance between belief and action is no so great in most cases. I have zero time for anyone who thinks dogs are dirty and will send them to hell upon touch. It's just going to be a matter of time before that person's actions piss me off. Same with any number of beliefs...lgbtq being one of many. Quite honestly I don't think religious people are any different.

[Yamer]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

Aside from a priest touching me when I was a child, I can't think of what I'd be angry about. You could be wrong.

First, I'm sorry that happened to you. Thank you for your courage in putting that out there, and I better understand your perspective, but I don't think I'm 'wrong'.

Justified anger, certainly. But was that the Christian beliefs, or just some regular piece of human #### in silly looking robes? A belief/faith system is no excuse or cause for what happened to you and countless other people.

You're angry at the Church. Perfectly acceptable; I am too. The organized system set up to enable and protect these horrifyingly traumatic acts and monsters is purely disgusting. No argument there.

However, I don't think attacking the underlying foundation of that system (Christianity) and labeling all Christians as idiots and scum is helpful. The overwhelming ferocity, aggression, and delight that some secular opponents take in ripping apart religious tenets and values is not just targeted destruction, but wholly destructive. In my experience all it has really done is more firmly entrench people in a dichotomy.

I was a semi-devoted Catholic (as most are, really) until I reached the age of reason and began to think critically. When I started to question, research, and apply scientific reasoning to my beliefs I found, within myself, the two worlds were entirely incompatible. I was angry because I felt lied to, I was angry because I felt my thoughts were restricted, I was angry at the passive and dismissive intolerance of my faith, and I was angry that all of those qualities negatively impacted other people too. Moreover, it was operating under an umbrella of corruption that protected some of the worst kinds of humanity.

I put that anger out there, and I put it out there very strongly for a lot of years. What I found is that I only ever really got more angry and upset, and it was just a never-ending battle with old friends simply because they went somewhere I used to go on Sundays. They weren't bad people, they weren't hurting people.

Once I learned to be more rationally minded and let go of my anger I was better able to help my friends gain my perspective. In turn, I also far better understood theirs. Turns out, some of the Christians in my life are disgusted by the Church's racket too, wish they would let go of discriminatory policies concerning sex, sexuality, and gender, and wanted a more harmonious relationship with other faiths and secular groups.

Of course you're never going to convince all members of a religious group, en masse, to reject the principles of the life with which they know and are comfortable. Yet, when I stopped being angry I felt healthier, and my conversations were healthier. I didn't necessarily forgive these people, and some of the things they believe still make me upset because I believe they are supporting an archaic belief structure that hurts people. But, I don't hate them, and I'm no longer aggressive towards them. That just pushes them right back into their comfort zone of the Church, which is where I would like to see them step out from once in a while.

Faith brings comfort to some of the people I care for most, like my mom. The dialogue I have had with her has really opened her to new understandings, perspectives, and levels of tolerance and/or acceptance. All I ever got when I fought with her was misery and contempt.

"I see as much misery out of them moving to justify theirselves as them that set out to do harm."

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Yamer

Justified anger, certainly. But was that the Christian beliefs, or just some regular piece of human #### in silly looking robes? A belief/faith system is no excuse or cause for what happened to you and countless other people.

This remains one of my favourite opinion pieces on this topic, just because of the writing.

Originally Posted by Bringing the Vatican to Justice

I confess that, as a critic of religion, I have paid too little attention to the sexual abuse scandal in the Catholic Church. Frankly, it always felt unsportsmanlike to shoot so large and languorous a fish in so tiny a barrel. This scandal was one of the most spectacular “own goals” in the history of religion, and there seemed to be no need to deride faith at its most vulnerable and self-abased.

Even in retrospect, it is easy to understand the impulse to avert one’s eyes: Just imagine a pious mother and father sending their beloved child to the Church of a Thousand Hands for spiritual instruction, only to have him raped and terrified into silence by threats of hell. And then imagine this occurring to tens of thousands of children in our own time — and to children beyond reckoning for over a thousand years. The spectacle of faith so utterly misplaced, and so fully betrayed, is simply too depressing to think about.

But there was always more to this phenomenon that should have compelled my attention. Consider the ludicrous ideology that made it possible: The Catholic Church has spent two millennia demonizing human sexuality to a degree unmatched by any other institution, declaring the most basic, healthy, mature, and consensual behaviors taboo. Indeed, this organization still opposes the use of contraception, preferring, instead, that the poorest people on earth be blessed with the largest families and the shortest lives. As a consequence of this hallowed and incorrigible stupidity, the Church has condemned generations of decent people to shame and hypocrisy — or to Neolithic fecundity, poverty, and death by AIDS. Add to this inhumanity the artifice of cloistered celibacy, and you now have an institution — one of the wealthiest on earth — that preferentially attracts pederasts, pedophiles, and sexual sadists into its ranks, promotes them to positions of authority, and grants them privileged access to children.

Finally, consider that vast numbers of children will be born out of wedlock, and their unwed mothers vilified, wherever Church teaching holds sway — leading boys and girls by the thousands to be abandoned to Church-run orphanages only to be raped and terrorized by the clergy. Here, in this ghoulish machinery set to whirling through the ages by the opposing winds of shame and sadism, we mortals can finally glimpse how strangely perfect are the ways of the Lord.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-ha..._b_571088.html

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by Yamer

First, I'm sorry that happened to you. Thank you for your courage in putting that out there, and I better understand your perspective, but I don't think I'm 'wrong'.

Justified anger, certainly. But was that the Christian beliefs, or just some regular piece of human #### in silly looking robes? A belief/faith system is no excuse or cause for what happened to you and countless other people.

You're angry at the Church. Perfectly acceptable; I am too. The organized system set up to enable and protect these horrifyingly traumatic acts and monsters is purely disgusting. No argument there.

However, I don't think attacking the underlying foundation of that system (Christianity) and labeling all Christians as idiots and scum is helpful. The overwhelming ferocity, aggression, and delight that some secular opponents take in ripping apart religious tenets and values is not just targeted destruction, but wholly destructive. In my experience all it has really done is more firmly entrench people in a dichotomy.

I was a semi-devoted Catholic (as most are, really) until I reached the age of reason and began to think critically. When I started to question, research, and apply scientific reasoning to my beliefs I found, within myself, the two worlds were entirely incompatible. I was angry because I felt lied to, I was angry because I felt my thoughts were restricted, I was angry at the passive and dismissive intolerance of my faith, and I was angry that all of those qualities negatively impacted other people too. Moreover, it was operating under an umbrella of corruption that protected some of the worst kinds of humanity.

I put that anger out there, and I put it out there very strongly for a lot of years. What I found is that I only ever really got more angry and upset, and it was just a never-ending battle with old friends simply because they went somewhere I used to go on Sundays. They weren't bad people, they weren't hurting people.

Once I learned to be more rationally minded and let go of my anger I was better able to help my friends gain my perspective. In turn, I also far better understood theirs. Turns out, some of the Christians in my life are disgusted by the Church's racket too, wish they would let go of discriminatory policies concerning sex, sexuality, and gender, and wanted a more harmonious relationship with other faiths and secular groups.

Of course you're never going to convince all members of a religious group, en masse, to reject the principles of the life with which they know and are comfortable. Yet, when I stopped being angry I felt healthier, and my conversations were healthier. I didn't necessarily forgive these people, and some of the things they believe still make me upset because I believe they are supporting an archaic belief structure that hurts people. But, I don't hate them, and I'm no longer aggressive towards them. That just pushes them right back into their comfort zone of the Church, which is where I would like to see them step out from once in a while.

Faith brings comfort to some of the people I care for most, like my mom. The dialogue I have had with her has really opened her to new understandings, perspectives, and levels of tolerance and/or acceptance. All I ever got when I fought with her was misery and contempt.

"I see as much misery out of them moving to justify theirselves as them that set out to do harm."

Almost every atheist I know is far from angry. They are happy, devoted and well educated people. Thats why they argue their point, because if not them who? Do you think if we left it to the various religions that we would even be allowed to exist?
I think atheism is derived from the church (insert any denomination you want here) holding their lives hostage for many years. This hostage taking is also due to the fact that their parents and grandparents indoctrinated them into those faiths without their knowledge and acceptance.
The fact that Priests rape, Imams cut the clitoris and issue fatwa's is secondary.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by Yamer

First, I'm sorry that happened to you. Thank you for your courage in putting that out there, and I better understand your perspective, but I don't think I'm 'wrong'.

jeez man, I was joking. I was once again, showing the dangers of religion.
I was never Catholic, nor touched by a priest, even though thousands were.
But, still, I'm not angry, just vocal in my opposition to religion.

Also, happy to hear, you are feeling better.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

jeez man, I was joking. I was once again, showing the dangers of religion.
I was never Catholic, nor touched by a priest, even though thousands were.

Pretty lame joke.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by DuffMan

jeez man, I was joking.

I couldn't tell you weren't serious either... I mean if you're going to make a joke about child rape, it should at least be funny.

[DuffMan]

I guess, but if it wasn't for religion, I wouldn't have even had the opportunity to throw that out there. Thanks for enabling me, religion.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Cheese

Almost every atheist I know is far from angry. They are happy, devoted and well educated people. Thats why they argue their point, because if not them who? Do you think if we left it to the various religions that we would even be allowed to exist?

You can be an atheist without hating religion. People believe all sorts of weird stuff. Personally, I know a lot more people who believe secular nonsense than religious nonsense.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I couldn't tell you weren't serious either... I mean if you're going to make a joke about child rape, it should at least be funny.

"As you've probably heard, the Pope has asked all the Cardinals to return to Rome. You know how they got them all to come back? They told them that there was going to be a performance by the Vienna Boys Choir." —Jay Leno

"The Cardinals will be staying at the Domus Sanctae Marthae, the new hotel at the Vatican, where turn down service means the bell boy isn't interested."
—Daily Show host Jon Stewart

"They say (the Pledge of Allegiance) violates the separation of church and state. How about the separation of church and altar boy? That's what I'm worried about." —Jay Leno

"The House Transportation Committee is now considering a bill that would allow pilots to carry guns for protection. I've got a better idea, why not give guns to altar boys, give them a fighting chance." —Jay Leno

"In Boston, it looks like Cardinal Bernard Law isn't going to be punished. It turns out he's getting transferred to Rome, which is kind of like a promotion. He said today he wanted to thank all the little people." —Jay Leno

"The Catholic Church is finally cracking down. Here's the deal now: if a priest is transferred to another parish, he cannot take his live-in boyfriend." —David Letterman

"The Catholic Church has just opened a new $2 million cathedral in Los Angeles. They really spared no expense. Each confessional has a panic button in it." —David Letterman

"The big Vatican summit wrapped up, closing ceremonies were Harry Connick Jr. The Vatican is taking a tough stand now, three strikes and you're transferred." —David Letterman

"This is the last Take Your Daughter to Work Day. Next year, boys will be involved too. I guess the church lobbied pretty hard on that one." —Jay Leno

"After all these scandals in the church, many Roman Catholics are calling for an end to celibacy. And end to celibacy, how about starting celibacy? Let's at least try it to see if it works." —Jay Leno

"Pope has called all the U.S. cardinals back to the Vatican. He's going to have Italy's top soccer coach talk to them. I believe the topic is how to do your job without using your hands." —Jay Leno

"Today the Catholic Church unveiled its new policy. Don't ask, don't confess." —Jay Leno

"Isn't it crazy with all these church scandals? I'm beginning to understand how all those Bibles ended up in hotel rooms." —Jay Leno

"This week hundreds of bishops arrived in Dallas for their annual convention. You know what that means? Party. Party. Party. A couple of bellboys are being carried over the threshold tonight." —Jay Leno

"There is a big conference of Catholic Bishops in Dallas. Well this is great for the city, it brings in about $12 million in hush money." —David Letterman

"The Supreme Court ruled today that virtual child pornography is legal. Finally, some good news for the church." —Jay Leno

"Bush said we're going after white-collar criminals and I'm thinking 'Gee I wish the Catholic church would do that.'" —David Letterman

"Kids, if you see an ad that says Cardinals looking for a bat boy, watch out, that has nothing to do with the baseball team." —Jay Leno

[CliffFletcher]

I missed the part where Leno claimed he had been molested as a child. In a context where there was no reason to expect he was telling a joke.

[DuffMan]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

I missed the part where Leno claimed he had been molested as a child. In a context where there was no reason to expect he was telling a joke.

tough audience. you seem angry.

[Kybosh]

The dude running for the Christian Heritage Party in the federal by-election in my area also seems to share the same views as this Edmonton school. His flyers in my mailbox are . . . interesting.

[Cheese]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

You can be an atheist without hating religion. People believe all sorts of weird stuff. Personally, I know a lot more people who believe secular nonsense than religious nonsense.

a·the·ist
ˈāTHēəst/
noun
noun: atheist; plural noun: atheists
a person who disbelieves or lacks belief in the existence of God or gods.

Now that does not suggest hating religion at all, and you are right we do not have to hate religion(s), however the religious constantly force us into taking sides and that "could" include hatred by "some" atheists. (eg. Last week, the Pew Research Center released the results of a new survey concerning who Americans would want – or rather, wouldn’t want – for an in-law. While about 10 percent of Americans said they’d be unhappy if a family member married someone of a different political persuasion, and about 30 percent of Americans said they’d be unhappy if a family member married a gun owner, nearly 50 percent of Americans said that they’d be unhappy if a family member married an atheist.)
Based on this and MANY other studies of similar ilk I would suggest that it is the religious who hate, distrust, fear, or have irrational thoughts of nonreligious people, <see atheism>.