Flames' 2017 Off-Season Defence Discussion

[868904]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

Some fans don't appreciate shut down defencemen and what they bring at all. Some fans don't understand the value that rubbing a forward out, stapling him to the boards, clearing the crease, etc bring. I think in general what they contribute is misconstrued by advanced stats. Hard to quantify how much value there is in physically dominating smaller forwards and physically keeping them to the outside. Some people like to believe the NHL is all about skill and skating and that physical play is near irrelevant. That isn't reality but you won't convince them any different

Look at how much hate Engelland got during most of his time here as a prime example of the above

Honestly, I think the Engelland hate was really isolated to a few posters who posted very often. I think the majority of Flames fans on this board and in general liked Engelland.

He's a very good number 6 defenseman who can play a bit in your top 4 if injuries hit, plus he also doubles as your enforcer meaning you don't have to play a 5 minute plug up front; just that fact alone made him valuable, cause it allowed the Flames to run 4 lines.

[868904]

Originally Posted by memphusk

It's time to part ways with Engelland due to age, but #### is this team going to get bullied without him.

It's gonna be a long year for Ferland if Engelland is gone.

Flames will probably need to sign some enforcer forward as a 13th forward and play him when they play teams like the Oilers and Ducks.

[flamesforcup]

Sign Stone and let all kids pay bottom pair. Trade deadline acquire 2 rental top 6 dmen for the playoffs unless the kids show they can handle it.

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by 868904

It's gonna be a long year for Ferland if Engelland is gone.

Flames will probably need to sign some enforcer forward as a 13th forward and play him when they play teams like the Oilers and Ducks.

I look at a team like Nashville.
Who is their 'Engelland'?
I don't think they get run out if the rink.

[Love]

We need to find our own Josh Manson badly. I'm undecided on bringing Engelland back, but without him our defence is butter soft.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I look at a team like Nashville.
Who is their 'Engelland'?
I don't think they get run out if the rink.

Well they're playing that Ducks team next, so we shall see how they fare.

The Blackhawks are a smaller skilled team.

The Blues are bigger, but not all that mean outside of Ryan Reaves.

The Ducks have a lot of big AND mean players. I suspect that might cause some problems for a defense that relies mostly on skill to get the job done.

[Kipper_3434]

Retain Stone, Kulak and Rasmus full the rest
Gio-Hamilton
Brodie -Anderson
Kulak-Stone
Bartowski

Or if we want more balance

Gio-Anderson
Brodie -Stone
Kulak-Hamilton
Bartowski

But that exposes the younger guys to higher completion, Brodie and Stone would have to be at the top of their games as a shutdown pair.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

Retain Stone, Kulak and Rasmus full the rest
Gio-Hamilton
Brodie -Anderson
Kulak-Stone
Bartowski

Or if we want more balance

Gio-Anderson
Brodie -Stone
Kulak-Hamilton
Bartowski

But that exposes the younger guys to higher completion, Brodie and Stone would have to be at the top of their games as a shutdown pair.

Yeah, I could see that:

Giordano - Hamilton (keep the super pair together)
TJ Brodie - Andersson (pair a rookie with a vet)
B. Kulak - M. Stone (pair a rookie with a vet)

Then in tight situations flip Stone back with Brodie and limit rookie ice time.

[TheIronMaiden]

I would like to see the Flames sign Karl Alzner, and extend Stone. That leaves the 6 and 7 spot for kulak, Wortherspoon, and Bartowski to compete for

That would leave it:

Gio - Hamilton
Brodie - Stone
Kulak- Alzner
Bartowski

[Toonage]

Thats probably $25M worth of defense. At least.

[Enoch Root]

This idea that we run with two kids in the bottom pair - two big problems with it IMO:

1) It takes time to learn how to play D in the NHL. Kids need a vet to get them through it. Having two rookies play together is just asking for trouble and likely results in them taking longer to get where they need to be.

2) Injuries. If you run with 2 rookies in the lineup full-time, and then suffer an injury in the top 4, you're hooped.

At a bare minimum, the Flames need a 5th vet. Whether that's Stone and Engelland, or someone else, that remains to be seen. But you have to have them.

From there, having two kids in the lineup is fine, as long as they are 6 and 7, as opposed to 5 and 6. Being 6 and 7, you can work them in and out of the lineup, and ease them into bigger roles.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Yeah, I could see that:

Giordano - Hamilton (keep the super pair together)
TJ Brodie - Andersson (pair a rookie with a vet)
B. Kulak - M. Stone (pair a rookie with a vet)

Then in tight situations flip Stone back with Brodie and limit rookie ice time.

Exactly what I was thinking not sure who gets the pk time though. Seems like lots pp options at least.

Maybe Brodie -Stone as the first pk but not sure about the second unit.

Would Stone play pp or Anderson?

[Toonage]

Re: Enoch's comment above

Thats where Bartkowski could fit in.

Giordano-Hamilton
Brodie-Stone
Bartkowski-Andersson
- Kulak

It would be great to have Engelland back, but they aren't likely to give him much term and therefore the money ask is likely to be too high.

[TheIronMaiden]

The Flames wont have a strong defence with Kulak and Anderson playing every night. the price is worth paying for a solid Defence.

This is especially true with how the Flames goal tending situation is shaping up. The Flames can't afford to have poor defence, their offence simply is not good enough to out score good teams. The Flames need to be able to shut good teams down to have success.

I have no problem with the Flames paying lots for D-men, as long as they are the right pieces.

[Roof-Daddy]

Originally Posted by TheIronMaiden

I would like to see the Flames sign Karl Alzner, and extend Stone. That leaves the 6 and 7 spot for kulak, Wortherspoon, and Bartowski to compete for

That would leave it:

Gio - Hamilton
Brodie - Stone
Kulak- Alzner
Bartowski

Looks good on paper, but in a cap world it's hard to justify that much money tied up in D. ($25 million + for this D)

Like it or not, our big money D men are already in the fold (assuming Stone is re-signed) and we have to find good cheap depth D to fill it out around them.

[TheIronMaiden]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Looks good on paper, but in a cap world it's hard to justify that much money tied up in D.

Like it or not, our big money D men are already in the fold (assuming Stone is re-signed) and we have to find good cheap depth D to fill it out around them.

Considering that the Flames will have around 10M off the books via Stone, Engelland, and Widemen, they should be able to afford two solid D-Men. Now you have a good point about the Flames cap. but if the option is there they should spend it where it counts which I think is on Defence.

I am no expert on who the right guys are, but two good D men need to come in if the Flames want to be a good playoff team. I would love to be wrong, but I don't think that kulak, Wortherspoon, and Anderson will be good enough and Bartowski will probably be exactly as good as we have seen.

[868904]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

I look at a team like Nashville.
Who is their 'Engelland'?
I don't think they get run out if the rink.

They are a fairly big team and have guys who can take care of themselves.

Austin Watson served the Ferland role for them this year but he's a terrible fighter which prompted the Preds to acquire Cody Mcleod near the deadline. Mcleod played regularly for them and ended up as one of the leaders in fighting majors.

Coincidentally, the Preds started playing better after this acquisition.

[Erick Estrada]

I wouldn't be shocked if the Flames kicked the tires on Russell if Edmonton lets him get on the market.

[Bunk]

It's a decent chance it'll be Stone or Alzner, but not both.

Gio-Hamilton
Brodie-Alzner
Engelland-Andersson
Kulak

The top two pairings can eat a ton of time.

[Itse]

Originally Posted by Erick Estrada

I wouldn't be shocked if the Flames kicked the tires on Russell if Edmonton lets him get on the market.

I don't see it. To me all the reasons we let him go the first time are still valid today.