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Old 10-21-2016, 03:02 PM   #41
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I think you're oversimplifying it a little. When the pressure comes with the added threat of being ostracized by your peers, it gets a little harder to say no. I'm not saying it's criminal behaviour at that point or something that needs to be legislated, but it's scummy.
That wasn't really the question rubecube. He asked if the person was consenting. That has nothing to do with the scummy behaviour of the peers.

Social pressure doesn't remove one's ability to consent to something.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:02 PM   #42
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I do think there's a strong streak of puritanism in the regressive left movement, especially on campus, where anxiety about sexuality has activists calling for the kinds of restrictions that their grandmothers would be familiar with, and that their mothers fought hard to break down.
This isn't what's happening though. The far left campus groups are the ones throwing PLUR parties, encouraging people to defy morality and gender norms, etc.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:08 PM   #43
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That wasn't really the question rubecube. He asked if the person was consenting. That has nothing to do with the scummy behaviour of the peers.

Social pressure doesn't remove one's ability to consent to something.
Okay, so would you say a secretary who is forced into intercourse by her boss through the fear of being fired is consenting? I get it's not exactly the same thing but for a lot of people, especially teens, the threat of being ostracized from your peers tends to be a pretty big deal.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:11 PM   #44
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You're right, they aren't the same thing. Next.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:12 PM   #45
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Go back and read the thread. I'm not the one who made a blanket statement about impairment and consent. And at no point have I defended coercion, or sleeping with barely conscious partners. I'm just challenging the implied narrative that young women don't want to engage in this type of behaviour of their own free will, and must have been coerced or exploited. Exactly the same point that some of the female participants have made.
I would agree with you, except for this quote in the article:
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“One of the things I heard in the bathroom was a girl saying “I'm not sure I like this” and one of her team mates encouraging her to have sex with one of the judges because it gives you more points and then the girl said, “I don’t know, this is too slutty for me,” and her friend suggesting she just have anal sex then. It was kind of shocking.”
Considering none of the women in the "event" have actually come forward and said they felt this way, it may not be an issue at all.
If they are feeling this way however, that's a problem
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:13 PM   #46
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You're right, they aren't the same thing.
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I get it's not exactly the same thing
Did you miss this part? Again, I'm not advocating any kind of legal changes to it, but I think we should discourage the type of behaviour that puts people in situations they're uncomfortable being in, which I think can probably be achieved through education and just a general culture shift.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:21 PM   #47
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I would agree with you, except for this quote in the article:

Considering none of the women in the "event" have actually come forward and said they felt this way, it may not be an issue at all.
If they are feeling this way however, that's a problem
A person can be in over their head. Those quotes didn't say that she was forced to do anything, just that she felt uncomfortable.

If you go to a party and you feel uncomfortable should the party not take place or should you just leave?
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:21 PM   #48
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Did you miss this part? Again, I'm not advocating any kind of legal changes to it, but I think we should discourage the type of behaviour that puts people in situations they're uncomfortable being in, which I think can probably be achieved through education and just a general culture shift.
Hard to ask "did you miss this part" when it was literally the part I responded to.

You called out CliffF for false equivalence and what he said was far more relevant. If you're going to do that, then I don't care about your caveat, it deserves to be called out all the same.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:24 PM   #49
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You called out CliffF for false equivalence and what he said was far more relevant. If you're going to do that, then I don't care about your caveat, it deserves to be called out all the same.
Yeah, fine, bad example. I guess maybe the appropriate distinction to make in the example of this pub crawl is if it goes from peer pressure to full-on harassment. I think if you're harassed into doing something you're not comfortable, then I have a hard time calling it consensual.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:28 PM   #50
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Okay, so would you say a secretary who is forced into intercourse by her boss through the fear of being fired is consenting? I get it's not exactly the same thing but for a lot of people, especially teens, the threat of being ostracized from your peers tends to be a pretty big deal.
No, of course not. Don't be a dick rubecube. You know damn well that I was never suggesting anywhere close to that, and I take great offense.

We are talking social pressure. Not threat of violence. Not the fear of being fired. Nothing else but a couple of young adults saying "come on."
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:29 PM   #51
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I think you're oversimplifying it a little. When the pressure comes with the added threat of being ostracized by your peers, it gets a little harder to say no. I'm not saying it's criminal behaviour at that point or something that needs to be legislated, but it's scummy.

I'm kinda jumping in mid conversation here, but anyone who showed up to this pub crawl knew exactly what they were getting into, from the sounds of it.

I doubt anyone showed up it was going to be a bunch of pg rated pub games then got peer pressured into having an orgy.

This party was popular precisely because of the x rated fun that was happening.

Moreover, an interesting ethical question arises. For example in the scenario quoted by our puritan "reporter", who is really the one coercing? The hesitant girl's friend? Or the guy who she ends up having anal sex with? Sounds to me like her friend is the one who would be engaging in sexual assault, despite not actually partaking in the sex act. But even that opens up a crazy can of worms.

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Old 10-21-2016, 03:31 PM   #52
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No, of course not. Don't be a dick rubecube. You know damn well that I was never suggesting anywhere close to that, and I take great offense.
Chill, man. I never suggested that's what you were implying and I admitted it was a bad example.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:35 PM   #53
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Chill, man. I never suggested that's what you were implying and I admitted it was a bad example.
Imported_Aussie asked, pretty much, if peer pressure removes one's ability to consent.

I stated that I did not believe that to be the case. You are still consenting even if peer pressured.

You came back with asking if I was okay with actual sexual harassment. It was distasteful and a poor way to get your point across.

I'm all for education, starting with the idea that you don't need to cave into peer pressure and you shouldn't peer pressure others that has been going on for a long time. That still doesn't change the fact that you are consenting even if peer pressured.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:36 PM   #54
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I'm kinda jumping in mid conversation here, but anyone who showed up to this pub crawl knew exactly what they were getting into, from the sounds of it.

I doubt anyone showed up it was going to be a bunch of pg rated pub games then got peer pressured into having an orgy.

This party was popular precisely because of the x rated fun that was happening.
Okay, but it's not out of the realm of reason for someone to show up to one of these things thinking that it's something they can handle and then go "Yeah, no, I'm uncomfortable." As long as it's okay for that person to withdraw without being harassed, then I don't have any problems with it. It honestly sounds like it's just a crazy ass college party that a bunch of ninnies are getting upset about. If so, then leave 'em alone.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:39 PM   #55
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Imported_Aussie asked, pretty much, if peer pressure removes one's ability to consent.

I stated that I did not believe that to be the case. You are still consenting even if peer pressured.

You came back with asking if I was okay with actual sexual harassment. It was distasteful and a poor way to get your point across.

I'm all for education, starting with the idea that you don't need to cave into peer pressure and you shouldn't peer pressure others that has been going on for a long time. That still doesn't change the fact that you are consenting even if peer pressured.
Yeah, I guess I was also kind of thinking of a situation that I witnessed about 10 years ago. I lived with two other dudes and one had a girlfriend who was staying over one night. The other roommate came home, drunk off his ass and high on blow and burst into the room demanding the chick show him her boobs or he wasn't going to leave them alone. Dude seriously badgered her for 30 min and then her boyfriend started yelling at her to do it so he could sleep, so she finally caved. Would you consider that consensual?
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:50 PM   #56
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As long as it's okay for that person to withdraw without being harassed, then I don't have any problems with it.
No part of me believes, that would have happened.
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Old 10-21-2016, 03:53 PM   #57
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No part of me believes, that would have happened.
You missed a great opportunity to make a "pulling out" joke.
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Old 10-21-2016, 04:07 PM   #58
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None of this discussion matters anyway as now that this event has been made public, it will be as good as dead, at least as far at it being associated with the university.
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Old 10-21-2016, 04:13 PM   #59
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Considering none of the women in the "event" have actually come forward and said they felt this way, it may not be an issue at all.
If they are feeling this way however, that's a problem
This is a link to the student newspaper that is running anon replies from people who were there. While it's not signed (obviously) and could be fake, it purports to be from a woman. It's also the full letter that the previous links have quoted from:

http://thefulcrum.ca/opinions/re-vet...al-la-rotonde/

Following the tags on that page for "Vets tour" leads to more interesting reading from those who claim to have participated:

http://thefulcrum.ca/tag/vets-tour/

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Old 10-21-2016, 04:16 PM   #60
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This is a link to the student newspaper that is running anon replies from people who were there. While it's not signed (obviously) and could be fake, it purports to be from a woman. It's also the full letter that the previous links have quoted from:

http://thefulcrum.ca/opinions/re-vet...al-la-rotonde/
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I identify as a feminist, and a proud part of that identity includes being proud of my sexual exploits. I have never felt shame or guilt about any consensual activities that I have participated in. Until this Monday morning.
God damn regressive left.
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