University of Ottawa "naked pub crawl"

[TorqueDog]

Originally Posted by Mazrim

Because of this:

Are you okay with student organizations supporting this kind of activity?

It's none of anyone's business but theirs. Whether some random from CalgaryPuck approves or not is probably not weighing on them very much.

[troutman]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

We live in a culture that has long linked social activities among young adults with inebriation. I met my wife at the Ship & Anchor. Most people I know met their significant other in an environment where alcohol was a factor. As I noted in my previous post, increased freedom always means decreased safety.

Is it time to turn our back on that kind of liberality? Return to the ways of our great-grandparents, a time of chaperones, religious prescriptions against pre-marital sex, and the shaming of women who drink?

rubecube answered this well be emphasizing this is about consent and not liberalism.

You are not allowed to marry someone, or make a will, or drive a car, while impaired.

[Imported_Aussie]

The issue here in my eyes is that coercion and social pressure does not mean consent is given freely. It is a product of rape culture, to put it bluntly, and to borrow that term.

There is a power dynamic here (judges, point scoring) and also alcohol use - both of which are legal, consensual behaviours, but in this environment are placing the marginalized individuals in a position where they may be engaging/feel pressure to engage in acts of a sexual nature that they would not consent to in other circumstances

Originally Posted by undercoverbrother

If the Science Students Association is an association recognized by uOttawa, then they should be involved,

If you get a bunch of students doing this under a "non-sanctioned" association then no, it isn't on uOttawa.

Actually, Universities are able to act if the parties are all connected to the campus, even if it is not on campus/through an event or organization sanctioned on campus. If the safety of students/mental health is a concern, there is scope to act. If there is potential for fallout/reprisals from an event like this, there is scope to act

[polak]

Originally Posted by Imported_Aussie

The issue here in my eyes is that coercion and social pressure does not mean consent is given freely. It is a product of rape culture, to put it bluntly, and to borrow that term.

There is a power dynamic here (judges, point scoring) and also alcohol use - both of which are legal, consensual behaviours, but in this environment are placing the marginalized individuals in a position where they may be engaging/feel pressure to engage in acts of a sexual nature that they would not consent to in other circumstances

This is applicable to literally every social event for adults where there is drinking involved.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by polak

This is applicable to literally every social event for adults where there is drinking involved.

Really? There are judges and point-scoring in every social event where drinking is involved? Man, I must be losing every social engagement I attend.

[Imported_Aussie]

Originally Posted by polak

This is applicable to literally every social event for adults where there is drinking involved.

Which is why people talk about rape culture as the sexualization of women and reduction of women to sexual objects by society. It is not simply about the act of rape, but more the social conditions where women are treated as sexual objects before people

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by troutman

You are not allowed to marry someone, or make a will, or drive a car, while impaired.

Thousands - probably tens of thousands - of people in this city will have sex tonight while impaired. If I play my cards right, I might be one of them. So how do we deal with consent practically?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Thousands - probably tens of thousands - of people in this city will have sex tonight while impaired. If I play my cards right, I might be one of them. So how do we deal with consent practically?

Really, dude? You can't spot the difference between having a bottle of wine with your wife and getting under the sheets and dudes taking nearly unconscious women home from the bar?

I get what you're saying because it's a huge grey area when both parties are impaired, but isn't it always you who rants about not letting perfect be the enemy of good?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Imported_Aussie

Which is why people talk about rape culture as the sexualization of women and reduction of women to sexual objects by society. It is not simply about the act of rape, but more the social conditions where women are treated as sexual objects before people

Men and women both sometimes regard one another as simply sex objects. Seeking out no-strings-attached sex on short acquaintance and on only the most superficial traits isn't a strictly male behaviour.

[polak]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Really? There are judges and point-scoring in every social event where drinking is involved? Man, I must be losing every social engagement I attend.

Judges, Point Scoring is no different than the hordes of other peer pressure tactics out there. "Drink" "Shots!" "Lets play a drinking game" "Don't be a pu**y" and all of those have the sole purpose of getting people drunker.

You're going to a naked pub crawl that has been going on for 9 years. At what point are you responsible for yourself?

Originally Posted by rubecube

Really, dude? You can't spot the difference between having a bottle of wine with your wife and getting under the sheets and dudes taking nearly unconscious women home from the bar?

Where is this coming from? Did I miss something in the article?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Men and women both sometimes regard one another as simply sex objects. Seeking out no-strings-attached sex on short acquaintance and on only the most superficial traits isn't a strictly male behaviour.

You know that's a false equivalence. Come on.

[Imported_Aussie]

Originally Posted by polak

Judges, Point Scoring is no different than the hordes of other peer pressure tactics out there. "Drink" "Shots!" "Lets play a drinking game" "Don't be a pu**y" and all of those have the sole purpose of getting people drunker.

You're going to a naked pub crawl that has been going on for 9 years. At what point are you responsible for yourself?

So if someone starts an action, thinking it will be OK, but then has doubts, but social pressure forces them to continue. is that consenting behaviour, or coercion?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by polak

Judges, Point Scoring is no different than the hordes of other peer pressure tactics out there. "Drink" "Shots!" "Lets play a drinking game" "Don't be a pu**y" and all of those have the sole purpose of getting people drunker.

Maybe you've played different drinking games than I have, but I've yet to play one where you can exchange sex for points in order to win the game.

You're going to a naked pub crawl that has been going on for 9 years. At what point are you responsible for yourself?

Yeah, I already stated that I don't necessarily have a big problem with this, but if you're ostracizing women or coercing them into doing things they otherwise wouldn't want to do through peer-pressure, etc., you're a scumbag and that goes for the women who do that to their own friends as well.

[polak]

Originally Posted by Imported_Aussie

So if someone starts an action, thinking it will be OK, but then has doubts, but social pressure forces them to continue. is that consenting behaviour, or coercion?

It depends on the level of pressure?

I think everyone has been in a situation were they were either trying to convince someone or getting convinced by someone to do something and understands that there is an acceptable level of harmless convincing and then there is malicious intent.

Either way though, we haven't heard any stories that say that anyone was convinced to do something they didn't want to. Are you suggesting we ban all activities where drinking and lewd behavior is involved because there is a chance that someone might be peer pressured into something?

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by polak

Are you suggesting we ban all activities where drinking and lewd behavior is involved because there is a chance that someone might be peer pressured into something?

[Oling_Roachinen]

Originally Posted by Imported_Aussie

So if someone starts an action, thinking it will be OK, but then has doubts, but social pressure forces them to continue. is that consenting behaviour, or coercion?

Define force?

If it's anything less than actual force or threat of force and it's only social pressure, I would consider it consenting behaviour. Absolutely.

"Let's go to the mall" "Nah I don't want to" "But it will be fun." "Fine." That's consenting to go to the mall.

"Let's play truth or dare" "Nah I don't want to" "But it will be fun." "Fine." That's consenting to play truth or dare.

"Let's have some weed" "Nah I don't want to" "But it will be fun." "Fine." That's consenting to have some weed.

"Let's jump that guy" "Nah I don't want to" "But it will be fun." "Fine." That's consenting to jump a guy.

"Let's _______" "Nah I don't want to" "But it will be fun." "Fine." That's consenting to ________.

I don't care what the blank is. I think your argument is actually very much the opposite of what you are an advocate of. If you don't give people the ability to consent under pressure to something, that's removing their ability to consent. And of course this is after them showing their hesitation to actually do something, which may not be the case in your argument. Peer pressure should never absolve someone's responsibilities.

Of course none of this applies if a person is unable to make decisions (i.e. to drunk).

[polak]

Originally Posted by rubecube

I don't get it. Is that not what people are arguing? This was an incident free event yet some people are mad that it even took place.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen

Define force?

If it's anything less than actual force or threat of force and it's only social pressure, I would consider it consenting behaviour. Absolutely.

"Let's go to the mall" "Nah I don't want to" "But it will be fun." "Fine." That's consenting to go to the mall.

"Let's play truth or dare" "Nah I don't want to" "But it will be fun." "Fine." That's consenting to play truth or dare.

"Let's have some weed" "Nah I don't want to" "But it will be fun." "Fine." That's consenting to have some weed.

"Let's jump that guy" "Nah I don't want to" "But it will be fun." "Fine." That's consenting to jump a guy.

"Let's _______" "Nah I don't want to" "But it will be fun." "Fine." That's consenting to ________.

I don't care what the blank is. I think your argument is actually very much the opposite of what you are an advocate of. If you don't give people the ability to consent under pressure to something, that's removing their ability to consent.

Of course none of this applies if a person is unable to make decisions (i.e. to drunk).

I think you're oversimplifying it a little. When the pressure comes with the added threat of being ostracized by your peers, it gets a little harder to say no. I'm not saying it's criminal behaviour at that point or something that needs to be legislated, but it's scummy.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by rubecube

Really, dude? You can't spot the difference between having a bottle of wine with your wife and getting under the sheets and dudes taking nearly unconscious women home from the bar?

I get what you're saying because it's a huge grey area when both parties are impaired, but isn't it always you who rants about not letting perfect be the enemy of good?

Go back and read the thread. I'm not the one who made a blanket statement about impairment and consent. And at no point have I defended coercion, or sleeping with barely conscious partners. I'm just challenging the implied narrative that young women don't want to engage in this type of behaviour of their own free will, and must have been coerced or exploited. Exactly the same point that some of the female participants have made.

I do think there's a strong streak of puritanism in the regressive left movement, especially on campus, where anxiety about sexuality has activists calling for the kinds of restrictions that their grandmothers would be familiar with, and that their mothers fought hard to break down.

[rubecube]

Originally Posted by polak

I don't get it. Is that not what people are arguing? This was an incident free event yet some people are mad that it even took place.

I can't speak for Aussie, but I don't think they're arguing about this event in particular.