The 2016 US American Election Thread

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

I agree but it's trickier because it's just not crappy jobs. Auto and Manufacturing are gone too. I personally don't think the people affected are at 'america is going to hell' levels but it's something Hillary needs to address better.

Auto and manufacturing are crappy jobs too. They were only not crappy when they had strong unions that fought for benefits and wages that were much higher than they should be, which led to the American cars being expensive and poorer quality. The manufacturing industry is a dying industry in the US, and that's ok. America is still doing quite well compared to most countries, and relatively new companies like Amazon,Google, Apple and Microsoft employee more people than GM, Ford and Chrysler. It is not the sector we should be focusing on for job growth. It is not surprising coming from Trump. As far as I know, his business interests are mostly golf courses, office towers, real estate, and casinos. All very mature, or declining industries. I don't recall him ever having the foresight to get in early on a tech company about to take off.

[station]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Obviously it's not that simple but it's probably some version of this; he's talking about gross income and net is much

Re the tax question. I'm amazed that he admitted to this and called it good business. Doesn't that undermine his supposed populist message?

Anyway, people don't fully realize to what degree the US is a huge tax shelter for the wealthy. I doubt Trump paid literally $0 in taxes but I'm sure it's very little. My dad moved to the states after he sold his business and pays an embarrassingly small amount of tax despite making 7 figures / year from investment income. I mean he pays less than I do here and I make your typical CP income.

There are many ways this happens.
- As mentioned above, he's almost certainly talking about his gross income from his worldwide business. If gross income is 700, net income is probably 50-100.
- Layers of various businesses with offsetting gains and losses (especially in real estate).
- Negotiating favorable tax breaks on local municipal levels for developments.
- Much of one's lifestyle could be paid for through their businesses (favorable tax rates).
- Much of one's lifestyle could be paid for through a private foundation (no tax).
- Several states have no income tax.
- Investment income from muni bonds and t-bills is non taxable.
- investment income can be hidden tax-free inside annuity and life insurance products.
- Foreign income can be offset with foreign tax credits.

I'm sure there is lots more.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by ChuckieNZ

You know that, I know that, but it doesn't stop him and his supporters using it to create a narrative.

Which I guess is kind of the point. Go on Twitter and go into the Trump cult if you dare. After last night they are more convinced than ever that a massive landslide is coming, that his debate performance was actually a brilliant bait set up for the other debates, and that only cheating and fraud will prevent a Trump win. He seems content to only appeal to his core of cultists, while simultaneously turning off almost every other voting block. It's like he still thinks he's running for the GOP nomination and not in a general.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis

Which I guess is kind of the point. Trust me go on Twitter and go into the Trump cult if you dare. After last night they are more convinced than ever that a massive landslide is coming and that only cheating and fraud will prevent a Trump win. He seems content to only appeal to his core of cultists, while simultaneously turning off almost every other voting block. It's like he still thinks he's running for the GOP nomination and not in a general.

you're sounding like such a #### right now.

[peter12]

While everyone says something derisive or snide to say about Clinton - and who am I to stop you - let's talk about Clinton for a second.

If we are talking relative comparisons, she was more presidential. However, I don't think that she won any big points last night. She was smug, could not control her disrespect, and came off as relying heavily on talking points. Voters don't like any of those things, especially now.

Trump has stayed in this race by being authentic, even if this means being poorly restrained and angry. Clinton is smart, experienced, but doesn't come off as real or even as being overly interested in this race. I mean, right now, she is just the obvious default choice over Trump, and I am afraid that is all she is running on currently.

The problem is that Trump is too impulsive, angry, and maybe even too stupid to come up with a cohesive attack on her mediocre record, her lackluster campaign, and her oligarchic pretenses.

I cannot stand Hillary Clinton. Cannot stand her. I cannot stand the progressive worship of the Presidency, and executive power, generally. I hate seeing her run against someone like Trump because he just cannot beat her, and if he did, I wouldn't want him to.

What an awful time for conservatism, generally.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by nik-

you're sounding like such a #### right now.

#####LivesMatter

[BigNumbers]

At this point, I want Trump to win just so I can watch the dumpster fire.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by station

Re the tax question. I'm amazed that he admitted to this and called it good business. Doesn't that undermine his supposed populist message?

Anyway, people don't fully realize to what degree the US is a huge tax shelter for the wealthy. I doubt Trump paid literally $0 in taxes but I'm sure it's very little. My dad moved to the states after he sold his business and pays an embarrassingly small amount of tax despite making 7 figures / year from investment income. I mean he pays less than I do here and I make your typical CP income.

There are many ways this happens.
- As mentioned above, he's almost certainly talking about his gross income from his worldwide business. If gross income is 700, net income is probably 50-100.
- Layers of various businesses with offsetting gains and losses (especially in real estate).
- Negotiating favorable tax breaks on local municipal levels for developments.
- Much of one's lifestyle could be paid for through their businesses (favorable tax rates).
- Much of one's lifestyle could be paid for through a private foundation (no tax).
- Several states have no income tax.
- Investment income from muni bonds and t-bills is non taxable.
- investment income can be hidden tax-free inside annuity and life insurance products.
- Foreign income can be offset with foreign tax credits.

I'm sure there is lots more.

his whole point is that the government is full of stupid people who lets a smart guy like him get away with all of this. Cause they're out of touch.

"I know how to cheat it, I know how to fix it"

[PsYcNeT]

Originally Posted by peter12

While everyone says something derisive or snide to say about Clinton - and who am I to stop you - let's talk about Clinton for a second.

If we are talking relative comparisons, she was more presidential. However, I don't think that she won any big points last night. She was smug, could not control her disrespect, and came off as relying heavily on talking points. Voters don't like any of those things, especially now.

Trump has stayed in this race by being authentic, even if this means being poorly restrained and angry. Clinton is smart, experienced, but doesn't come off as real or even as being overly interested in this race. I mean, right now, she is just the obvious default choice over Trump, and I am afraid that is all she is running on currently.

The problem is that Trump is too impulsive, angry, and maybe even too stupid to come up with a cohesive attack on her mediocre record, her lackluster campaign, and her oligarchic pretenses.

I cannot stand Hillary Clinton. Cannot stand her. I cannot stand the progressive worship of the Presidency, and executive power, generally. I hate seeing her run against someone like Trump because he just cannot beat her, and if he did, I wouldn't want him to.

What an awful time for conservatism, generally.

Milo Yiannopoulos 2020

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by BigNumbers

At this point, I want Trump to win just so I can watch the dumpster fire.

This isn't the Oilers. There will be real consequences to that dumpster fire.

[Drak]

Originally Posted by peter12

While everyone says something derisive or snide to say about Clinton - and who am I to stop you - let's talk about Clinton for a second.

If we are talking relative comparisons, she was more presidential. However, I don't think that she won any big points last night. She was smug, could not control her disrespect, and came off as relying heavily on talking points. Voters don't like any of those things, especially now.

Trump has stayed in this race by being authentic, even if this means being poorly restrained and angry. Clinton is smart, experienced, but doesn't come off as real or even as being overly interested in this race. I mean, right now, she is just the obvious default choice over Trump, and I am afraid that is all she is running on currently.

The problem is that Trump is too impulsive, angry, and maybe even too stupid to come up with a cohesive attack on her mediocre record, her lackluster campaign, and her oligarchic pretenses.

I cannot stand Hillary Clinton. Cannot stand her. I cannot stand the progressive worship of the Presidency, and executive power, generally. I hate seeing her run against someone like Trump because he just cannot beat her, and if he did, I wouldn't want him to.

What an awful time for conservatism, generally.

Clinton can't win can she? You just laid it out though stating your heavy bias towards her. You simply cannot stand her. She's either smug or shrill, even when she's making an effort to be composed. The times she was "smug" was justified IMO when Donald was spewing his typical lies and BS. If she just stood there, she'd be labelled a robot, or criticized for letting Trump walk all over her, and would take heat for that. If she just smiled without any animation, she'd be still be labeled "smug." For the most part, she made a solid effort to remain composed with the camera on her.

If she didn't lay out talking points what else does she have? Isn't that what a debate is supposed to be about? Laying out your plans and countering your opponent? Slapping around in the mud with Donald wouldn't help her at all. She'd just be criticized for that. Only Donald is allowed to act like an ass.

[peter12]

Originally Posted by PsYcNeT

Milo Yiannopoulos 2020

Trolling aside, I have no idea how or if the Republicans can come back from this mess.

[nfotiu]

Originally Posted by BigNumbers

At this point, I want Trump to win just so I can watch the dumpster fire.

I would guess a substantial percentage of his supporters are probably voting for that reason. I know I've talked to a few. Their thought process is basically, "You gave us Obama, now trying to give us Hillary and have convinced themselves that this country must be horrible now, so we'll give them someone they'll totally hate and he can't possibly make things worse." You can't really argue with that logic.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by peter12

Trolling aside, I have no idea how or if the Republicans can come back from this mess.

Step 1: Have audit.
Step 2: Determine to be more inclusive because they'll never win without it.
Step 3: Be more divisive and horrible than ever.

[Senator Clay Davis]

Originally Posted by peter12

Trolling aside, I have no idea how or if the Republicans can come back from this mess.

Four years of hating on Hillary every day will unite them pretty well. Now what kind of candidate will they be uniting behind? We'll see, but obviously the battle for the party begins after the election with three groups duking it out: the alt-right, the Christian coalition, and the moderates.

[station]

Originally Posted by GirlySports

his whole point is that the government is full of stupid people who lets a smart guy like him get away with all of this. Cause they're out of touch.

"I know how to cheat it, I know how to fix it"

Absolutely and obviously some will fall for that. I guess what amazes me the most about that exchange is that he didn't deny any of the list of 'real reasons' Clinton gave for not releasing the tax returns: no tax, no charity, huge debt to Wall Street, huge debts and undisclosed ties to foreign bodies. I mean that just looks terrible regardless of your message. He's sticking with the audit angle which absolutely no one believes. And the financial disclosure statement is better than a tax return was pathetically weak.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by peter12

While everyone says something derisive or snide to say about Clinton - and who am I to stop you - let's talk about Clinton for a second.

If we are talking relative comparisons, she was more presidential. However, I don't think that she won any big points last night. She was smug, could not control her disrespect, and came off as relying heavily on talking points. Voters don't like any of those things, especially now.

Trump has stayed in this race by being authentic, even if this means being poorly restrained and angry. Clinton is smart, experienced, but doesn't come off as real or even as being overly interested in this race. I mean, right now, she is just the obvious default choice over Trump, and I am afraid that is all she is running on currently.

The problem is that Trump is too impulsive, angry, and maybe even too stupid to come up with a cohesive attack on her mediocre record, her lackluster campaign, and her oligarchic pretenses.

I cannot stand Hillary Clinton. Cannot stand her. I cannot stand the progressive worship of the Presidency, and executive power, generally. I hate seeing her run against someone like Trump because he just cannot beat her, and if he did, I wouldn't want him to.

What an awful time for conservatism, generally.

I do not understand your opposition to Hillary from that stance, though I respect it.

Things like this humanize Hillary to me:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...ary/?tid=sm_tw

[flylock shox]

Trump looked unprepared, ill-informed and - as the debate wore on - increasingly disinterested in the whole argument (except as it related to him personally). At times it looked like he was coming up with his stance on issues on the fly.

It would be such an indictment of the American populace if this election ends up even being close. The disparity in the qualifications of these two candidates is a yawning chasm. I genuinely think I know about 20 people who I could have put up on that stage - with no preparation whatsoever - who would have performed better, and come across as more knowledgeable than Trump did. He just doesn't have the tools to deal in anything more than soundbites, and these debates - where he has to actually opine on real issues for 2 minutes at a time - are going to kill him.

[CaptainCrunch]

But was this debate enough to move the needle significantly on the polls? Or in the voting box, I'm not sure it was.

At this point, its pretty rare that knockout punches are delivered in debates anymore, the last outright knockout punch I remember in any leadership debate was Mulroney tearing John Turner a new one in a leadership debate.

And I think Reagan in a presidential debate against MD.

At this point, the battle is for the what 5% undecided voters who really aren't going to decide until their sitting in the ballot boxes.

I personally think that there should always be a final debate on the night of the vote so that people go to the box with a fresh memory of the candidates.

[GirlySports]

Originally Posted by flylock shox

Trump looked unprepared, ill-informed and - as the debate wore on - increasingly disinterested in the whole argument (except as it related to him personally). At times it looked like he was coming up with his stance on issues on the fly.

It would be such an indictment of the American populace if this election ends up even being close. The disparity in the qualifications of these two candidates is a yawning chasm. I genuinely think I know about 20 people who I could have put up on that stage - with no preparation whatsoever - who would have performed better, and come across as more knowledgeable than Trump did. He just doesn't have the tools to deal in anything more than soundbites, and these debates - where he has to actually opine on real issues for 2 minutes at a time - are going to kill him.

The problem is, the worse Trump does, the more it will appeal to his base. When he is rude and has childish outbursts, they view it as strength and fighting back at Hillary. When he makes uninformed statements about the Iran deal being the worst deal in history, they don't understand anything about the deal, and that reflects what they have been told 1000 times about the Iran deal. When he comes across as unprepared or failing to understand the issue or policy discussed, they view it as him not being a politician, and they like his ignorance is a positive. Trump won over his supporters by acting like a third world strong man dictator and throwing out empty nationalistic slogans, playing off of the fear and frustration of people. Not to mention playing off of racism and poorly educated and poorly informed voters. I've seen a lot of interviews with passionate Trump supporters who have never voted or paid attention before. These people have no concept of the issues, and are turned off by the policy answer Clinton gives. There were several times she used political terms to explain her policies, and I guarantee many people supporting both candidates didn't understand her point. Even simple things like referring to countries as states. Sure, it is correct and in politics even the preferred term, but she needs to speak to the people. Anyone with a firm grasp of the issues is already voting for her. Keep it terms that have meaning to the common person.