Electric vehicle war, is gas soon to be toast?

[OldDutch]

Just got back from visiting a friend in Florida. He has the hybrid f-150. I was super impressed.He gets some amazing milage something like 600mi to a tank. You also don’t need a plug at home and you can road trip with it.

I think that is the practical way forward. Get a hybrid. EV is a neat thought but for me I just see hybrid as best of all worlds

[btimbit]

If I was buying right now a plug in hybrid would be my choice. Would have already for my last car if it was 1+ year wait lists at the time

But I'm likely a few years from buying, who knows how EV's will look then

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by OldDutch

Just got back from visiting a friend in Florida. He has the hybrid f-150. I was super impressed.He gets some amazing milage something like 600mi to a tank. You also don’t need a plug at home and you can road trip with it.

I think that is the practical way forward. Get a hybrid. EV is a neat thought but for me I just see hybrid as best of all worlds

I hear what you're saying, but it's actually not the best of both worlds. It's also the worst of two worlds. A soft Hybrid is just a gas powered vehicle with slightly better mileage (F150 hybrid gets 24mpg). At least a plug in hybrid gives you truly better fuel economy if you plug in, but now you're paying for and maintaining two cheaper drivetrains.

The only thing a gas powered truck is better at is towing and it's not close. If that's important to you and you're not concerned about greenhouse gas emissions, at this point the gas powered F150 is your truck as I've heard the hybrid is risky with towing.

[calgarygeologist]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I hear what you're saying, but it's actually not the best of both worlds. It's also the worst of two worlds. A soft Hybrid is just a gas powered vehicle with slightly better mileage (F150 hybrid gets 24mpg). At least a plug in hybrid gives you truly better fuel economy if you plug in, but now you're paying for and maintaining two cheaper drivetrains.

The only thing a gas powered truck is better at is towing and it's not close. If that's important to you and you're not concerned about greenhouse gas emissions, at this point the gas powered F150 is your truck as I've heard the hybrid is risky with towing.

A mild hybrid is not bad at all. There is some additional maintenance but it shouldn't be that bad. We've had a mild hybrid for three years and I love it. The initial cost is significantly lower than a BEV and I can drive it anywhere. We primarily use it for our everyday commute and we do almost 70% in EV mode with having to charge up. Highway efficient is where it really falls short, of my expectations, but it is still only around 6.5L/100km which is good.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by calgarygeologist

A mild hybrid is not bad at all. There is some additional maintenance but it shouldn't be that bad. We've had a mild hybrid for three years and I love it. The initial cost is significantly lower than a BEV and I can drive it anywhere. We primarily use it for our everyday commute and we do almost 70% in EV mode with having to charge up. Highway efficient is where it really falls short, of my expectations, but it is still only around 6.5L/100km which is good.

The comment was a hybrid is the best of both worlds. It's just not really.


A mild hybrid has better fuel efficiency than pure ICE, sure. It has zero of the benefits of electric (instant torque, cheap fuel costs, way cheaper maintenance). You can't claim a mild hybrid is the best of both worlds when it's in only one world.

A plug-in hybrid seems like the best of both worlds because you get a battery powered vehicle but none of the range anxiety. That's why my wife wanted a plug-in hybrid. It's served us well and I like it well enough, but it's not the best of both worlds if you look deeper. First, we had to pay for two drivetrains. The gas engine we have is mediocre and the electric motor is even lower. We do have less maintenance with the gas engine because we rarely use it, but it still needs regular oil changes, etc. We only burn any gas on trips out of town, but moving to Salmon Arm means more trips out of town so we're using some fuel now.

There's still no electric minivan so I didn't suppose I'll be going pure electric soon, but when I can I will for sure

[BigThief]

Saw a Rivian Truck on the road here in Calgary for the first time, absolutely gorgeous vehicles in person.

[Wormius]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Saw a Rivian Truck on the road here in Calgary for the first time, absolutely gorgeous vehicles in person.

A few around Vancouver, too. With regular gas at > $2.00/litre and being a more temperate climate, the number of EVs there makes sense.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by BigThief

Saw a Rivian Truck on the road here in Calgary for the first time, absolutely gorgeous vehicles in person.

Got to go for a few drives in one after a friend bought one. Such beautiful vehicles.

[timun]

Originally Posted by btimbit

If I was buying right now a plug in hybrid would be my choice. Would have already for my last car if it was 1+ year wait lists at the time

But I'm likely a few years from buying, who knows how EV's will look then

Yeah, me too. For me the problem is no one vehicle really offers a compelling package. As I wrote on the previous page I really really really want to love the Ford Maverick, but cost has scared me off; the other thing that soured me a bit is no plug-in hybrid with all-wheel-drive. I could have maybe justified the additional cost to myself if it was a plug-in with AWD, but such as it is... eh, I just can't do it.

The other great issue, as you allude to, is the profound lack of availability of plug-in hybrids in Alberta in general. You wouldn't know some of the hybrids nominally built by the manufacturers actually even exist in the real world. Might as well be written off as myth at this point.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by timun

Yeah, me too. For me the problem is no one vehicle really offers a compelling package. As I wrote on the previous page I really really really want to love the Ford Maverick, but cost has scared me off; the other thing that soured me a bit is no plug-in hybrid with all-wheel-drive. I could have maybe justified the additional cost to myself if it was a plug-in with AWD, but such as it is... eh, I just can't do it.



The other great issue, as you allude to, is the profound lack of availability of plug-in hybrids in Alberta in general. You wouldn't know some of the hybrids nominally built by the manufacturers actually even exist in the real world. Might as well be written off as myth at this point.

PHEV vehicles are a lot more expensive to manufacture than pure ice or even mild hybrids, so they're often "compliance cars" which are essentially in the lineup only to avoid fines in places like California and Europe. They make only as many as they need to in order to comply as they don't make money in them

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compliance_car

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by Wormius

A few around Vancouver, too. With regular gas at > $2.00/litre and being a more temperate climate, the number of EVs there makes sense.

BC an Quebec offer provincial EV rebates so manufacturers have directed more EV/s PHEV's to those provinces, because they are technically cheaper. And the gas prices.

[timun]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

PHEV vehicles are a lot more expensive to manufacture than pure ice or even mild hybrids, so they're often "compliance cars" which are essentially in the lineup only to avoid fines in places like California and Europe. They make only as many as they need to in order to comply as they don't make money in them

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compliance_car

Amusing that your Wikipedia link, other than throwaway mentions of the Subaru Crosstrek PHEV and Mazda MX-30, consists entirely of battery-electric cars.

I understand the point you're trying to make but it's basically the case with almost all electric cars, with respect to availability in Alberta. As Fuzz mentioned there are no provincial tax incentives, so manufacturer inventory in Canada goes mostly to BC and Quebec, and most North American market production is disproportionately allocated to the US in the first place.

You keep repeating the refrain that "PHEVs are more expensive to manufacture" because you "have to pay for two drivetrains" (you're blithely glossing over the immense cost of manufacturing large battery packs for long-range BEVs, but anyway...), as though this should matter to me at all. It doesn't. I only care about cost to me.

You can wax poetic about how bad the idea of a PHEV is compared to pure BEV for all eternity, but until you have a better suggestion... so what?

[Sylvanfan]

The theory of exponential growth tells me I'd be wasting my money to go electric or even hybrid right now. The technology is still new, therefore bad and expensive. Plus with 80,000total km driven by my wife and I in the last 4 years we don't drive enough to remotely realize any savings.

10 years from now, I expect a 5 year old EV will be cheap and far superior to what people spend 6 figures on today. In the mean time I'll just continue to focus on reducing how much we drive each year.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by timun

Amusing that your Wikipedia link, other than throwaway mentions of the Subaru Crosstrek PHEV and Mazda MX-30, consists entirely of battery-electric cars.



I understand the point you're trying to make but it's basically the case with almost all electric cars, with respect to availability in Alberta. As Fuzz mentioned there are no provincial tax incentives, so manufacturer inventory in Canada goes mostly to BC and Quebec, and most North American market production is disproportionately allocated to the US in the first place.



You keep repeating the refrain that "PHEVs are more expensive to manufacture" because you "have to pay for two drivetrains" (you're blithely glossing over the immense cost of manufacturing large battery packs for long-range BEVs, but anyway...), as though this should matter to me at all. It doesn't. I only care about cost to me.



You can wax poetic about how bad the idea of a PHEV is compared to pure BEV for all eternity, but until you have a better suggestion... so what?

As for the compliance car, I'm mainly referring to Toyota Prime cars and a few others. They're not available anywhere because they manufacture so few then claim no one wants them. Chrysler is the same with the Pacifica Hybrid that I have. You really have to search to find one despite high demand because they lose money on them. To buy our Pacifica Hybrid we had to call Langley, Terrace, Penticton and Victoria as they were the only places to have them. Every salesman tried selling me one of the 10 regular Pacificas they had on their lot. Toyota Prius/Rav 4 Prime is a mythological vehicle as far a I'm concerned. I've never seen one

BEVs are expensive to make, yup. But my point still stands that the compromise to make a PHEV does not give you the best of the BEV world and the ICE world. It gives you the mediocre of each world. A mild hybrid is simply the best of ICE with none of the BEV benefits. That's fine. That's what some people want. Cool. I didn't think that's a controversial opinion or that I was waxing poetic about anything being bad.

I'm also not saying a PHEV is not a good option in Alberta. It probably is with limited charging options at the moment, but don't go into a PHEV thinking you're getting the same offering as a BEV with an additional gas engine because you're not. That's my only point

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

The comment was a hybrid is the best of both worlds. It's just not really.


A mild hybrid has better fuel efficiency than pure ICE, sure. It has zero of the benefits of electric (instant torque, cheap fuel costs, way cheaper maintenance). You can't claim a mild hybrid is the best of both worlds when it's in only one world.

A plug-in hybrid seems like the best of both worlds because you get a battery powered vehicle but none of the range anxiety. That's why my wife wanted a plug-in hybrid. It's served us well and I like it well enough, but it's not the best of both worlds if you look deeper. First, we had to pay for two drivetrains. The gas engine we have is mediocre and the electric motor is even lower. We do have less maintenance with the gas engine because we rarely use it, but it still needs regular oil changes, etc. We only burn any gas on trips out of town, but moving to Salmon Arm means more trips out of town so we're using some fuel now.

There's still no electric minivan so I didn't suppose I'll be going pure electric soon, but when I can I will for sure

In a perfect world every person who needs a truck has 80k (US) for a Rivian and the garage & the 10k extra for charging station to power it.

Regarding PHEV's, a new study suggests real world usage emitions are 5-7x higher CO2 than rated by EPA or whomever, giving car makers a huge benefit for producing low emission cars when they, in reality, aren't.
https://electrek.co/2023/02/08/anoth...an-we-thought/

There isn't any best answer available, unless you are wealthy. Which is like almost everything else I suppose, but this even more than most. And infrastructure (at least here) is so far behind now - and if Trump is elected I expect I'll get a free truckload of coal per month as energy incentive (instead of just seeing new gas stations being built on every other corner like we see now).
In the mean time, I'm confused where a choice to swap vehicle and cut personal CO2 emissions (from driving) by 3x is considered worst of both worlds.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

The theory of exponential growth tells me I'd be wasting my money to go electric or even hybrid right now. The technology is still new, therefore bad and expensive. Plus with 80,000total km driven by my wife and I in the last 4 years we don't drive enough to remotely realize any savings.

10 years from now, I expect a 5 year old EV will be cheap and far superior to what people spend 6 figures on today. In the mean time I'll just continue to focus on reducing how much we drive each year.

This is the way. A Chevy bolt was the highest range non-Tesla mass produced vehicle just a few years ago. Now it's one of the shortest range ones, with no tech options, and the charge curve is just atrocious. For about the same as what a Bolt cost just 4 or 5 years ago you can buy an Ioniq 5 with way more range, 5 times quicker charging, faster, more powerful, and has a whole host of tech options.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by EldrickOnIce

In a perfect world every person who needs a truck has 80k (US) for a Rivian and the garage & the 10k extra for charging station to power it.



Regarding PHEV's, a new study suggests real world usage emitions are 5-7x higher CO2 than rated by EPA or whomever, giving car makers a huge benefit for producing low emission cars when they, in reality, aren't.

https://electrek.co/2023/02/08/anoth...an-we-thought/



There isn't any best answer available, unless you are wealthy. Which is like almost everything else I suppose, but this even more than most. And infrastructure (at least here) is so far behind now - and if Trump is elected I expect I'll get a free truckload of coal per month as energy incentive (instead of just seeing new gas stations being built on every other corner like we see now).

In the mean time, I'm confused where a choice to swap vehicle and cut personal CO2 emissions (from driving) by 3x is considered worst of both worlds.

I'm not sure how a mild hybrid could possibly cut emissions by 3x. Maybe 20%? Or do you mean PHEV's?

The reason they found PHEVs are "dirtier than we thought" is because the study you refer to looked at 3 vehicles in urban centers in Europe. In Europe, these cars were mainly company cars due to vehicle ownership models being skewed to electrified fleet vehicles because of tax advantages in Europe. The study found that most PHEVs were not being charged, so in essence they were simply mild hybrids and not getting the emissions reductions from running off of the battery. If plugged in, PHEV's provide significantly reduced emissions to mild hybrids

[timun]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

[...] don't go into a PHEV thinking you're getting the same offering as a BEV with an additional gas engine because you're not. That's my only point

No one was arguing otherwise.

[Street Pharmacist]

Originally Posted by timun

No one was arguing otherwise.

Originally Posted by OldDutch

....
I think that is the practical way forward. Get a hybrid. EV is a neat thought but for me I just see hybrid as best of all worlds

This is what I was referring to all along

[EldrickOnIce]

Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist

I'm not sure how a mild hybrid could possibly cut emissions by 3x. Maybe 20%? Or do you mean PHEV's?

The reason they found PHEVs are "dirtier than we thought" is because the study you refer to looked at 3 vehicles in urban centers in Europe. In Europe, these cars were mainly company cars due to vehicle ownership models being skewed to electrified fleet vehicles because of tax advantages in Europe. The study found that most PHEVs were not being charged, so in essence they were simply mild hybrids and not getting the emissions reductions from running off of the battery. If plugged in, PHEV's provide significantly reduced emissions to mild hybrids

I got 15-16 mpg in my F-150, in my day to day
I'm 2/3 of the way through my first tank in the Maverick and according to the dash I am getting 46. The F150 was not built for stop start small road effeciency. The Maverick seems to be.