What was the biggest fleecing by a Flames GM?

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Stormageddon

Pretty much. It's funny that people bring up the Berra trade.

I'm pretty sure that is exactly how San Jose felt when Sutter called them up.

"You want to give us a second rounder for this guy? Done deal!!"

They thought they were trading a Reto Berra, not a vezina winner.

Eh that's not exactly how it was. The Sharks really liked all 3 goalies but at some point you make your decision and go with 2. Nabakov was the most proven so they had to keep him. Both Toskala and Kiprusoff were highly thought of by the Sharks. In fact this is why Sutter acquired him because he had been working for the Sharks just before taking the job in Calgary and thus knew that Sharks scouts and goalie coaches knew that Kiprusoff had a high upside. Sutter had worked with Kiprusoff in training camps and the like.

People keep talking in this thread like Kiprusoff was some big unknown. That's not really how it was. It was Sutter gambling on a goalie with a high upside who had yet to show it in the NHL and rescuing him from a 3 ring goalie circus. Not sure if you some of you don't remember the particulars or maybe just weren't following it as closely back then.

I think the deal qualifies as a fleecing. Obviously Sutter didn't know for sure he would pan out but it was a well calculated gamble on a youngish goalie that he had inside information on because he used to be the coach of that team.

[Vinny01]

I don't see how the Kipper trade was a fleecing?

Flames got a franchise goalie for 9 years and the Sharks got a top pairing Dman for the length of his career. Kipper wasn't a star goalie when he was traded but proved to be that very quickly on his time in Calgary. The deal would have been a fleecing but the Sharks made good on the draft pick so that negates that trade being a fleecing for Calgary. Both teams gambled on an unknown and hit bigtime.


The Hamilton deal as many mentioned was a clear fleecing and has only been solidified further by Dpugie's play. The Bruins didn't help the situation that night by drafting off the board with the 15th pick. Hamilton coming to Calgary after scoring 41pts as a 21 year old and follows up with 43pts as a 22 year old and 50pts as a top pairing D at 23. The Flames knew they were trading for a budding star Dman and he hasn't disappointed.

[MarchHare]

At least in my view, for a trade to be considered a "fleecing", one team must be a clear loser who deeply regrets the deal down the road. Unlike, say, Leeman/Gilmour where the Leafs clearly fleeced the Flames, I doubt many in San Jose regret the Kipprusoff deal all that much, even with hindsight.

[Sylvanfan]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Didn't Larry Ryckman trade junk bonds for Doug Flutie?

Now that is fleecing.

Actually it was the other way around sort of.

The BC Lions were not able to sign Free Agent Doug Flutie. Ryckman and the Stampeders made him the best offer. So the Stampeders were left with both Danny Barrett and Flutie at QB. So the Stampeders not wanting two higher paid QB's traded Barrett to BC who were than owned by Vancouver Stock Market promoter Murray Pezzum. Part of that package was junk bonds and shares in a Jamaican Gold mine IIRC.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Sylvanfan

Part of that package was junk bonds and shares in a Jamaican Gold mine IIRC.

Mine?

The gold in Jamaica doesn't come from a mine, mon.

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Flames Draft Watcher

People keep talking in this thread like Kiprusoff was some big unknown. That's not really how it was. It was Sutter gambling on a goalie with a high upside who had yet to show it in the NHL and rescuing him from a 3 ring goalie circus. Not sure if you some of you don't remember the particulars or maybe just weren't following it as closely back then.

He really was an unknown though and if Darryl was really that confident that Kipper would have been that good I'm pretty sure he would have traded for him sooner as if Turek never gets hurt Kipper's probably never a Flame so you can argue if anything it was more a turn of fortunate events than steal. He had played in the range of 40 NHL games and his stats in his last season were poor as he was the odd man out for the Sharks as they clearly liked Toskala better. You can argue at the time of the trade a 2nd round pick was an overpayment for what the Flames were getting. He wasn't nearly as touted as say J.S. Giguere who was also had for a 2nd round pick from the Flames. It's a steal when you look back on it with revisionist history but on the day of the trade it probably wasn't even news in cities other than Calgary or San Jose. We all know Darryl was one of those GM's that felt more comfortable acquiring players (or coaches) he had a history with so Kipper made sense but I doubt Darryl had any idea at the time he just acquired arguably the best goaltender in the history of the franchise.

The Hamilton trade was big news and was considered a steal at the time of the trade as it still is today. The Joe Thornton trade from Boston to San Jose or the Tyler Seguin trade from Boston to Dallas were what I consider steals as the day the were made it was apparent one team was making out like bandits. I suppose this entire debate hinges on the inclusion/exclusion of hindsight.

[SuperMatt18]

I learned from this thread that you shouldn't trade guys named Doug/Dougie.

Gilmour
Flutie
Hamilton

Plus a couple more:

Harvey (Won a Norris in New York after being traded for peanuts by Montreal)
Weight (Both the trade to and from the Oilers)

[Poe969]

IMO it has to be the Hamilton deal. The Kipper deal was about on par with an unknown goalie, he just panned out for the Flames. Hamilton has potential to be a franchise d-man, he's already a top pairing guy at 24 and he's on a good contract. You'd be hard pressed to get that in a trade without giving up star roster player.

goalies get traded often and at the time, Kipper wasn't a star. Dougie was already really good and improving, those kinds of players don't get traded often and when they do it's usually for equally good players (Jones for Johanson)

[Makarov]

Unfortunately the list of trades where the Flames GM was fleeced is likely longer.

I still dream about what could have been had the Flames not given away Savard for nothing. I suspect that decision cost us at least one Stanley Cup.

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Makarov

Unfortunately the list of trades where the Flames GM was fleeced is likely longer.

I still dream about what could have been had the Flames not given away Savard for nothing. I suspect that decision cost us at least one Stanley Cup.

Or if we had brought up Dion Phaneuf when we got down to Brenden Evens on defense due to injuries. Still don't understand why he wasn't at least there as a black ace to take in the experience, and possibly fill in at some point.

When you're playing Brenden Evans in your top six you're officially past the point of being able to say "a young rookie could struggle and hurt us defensively".

[Gaskal]

Originally Posted by Poe969

IMO it has to be the Hamilton deal. The Kipper deal was about on par with an unknown goalie, he just panned out for the Flames. Hamilton has potential to be a franchise d-man, he's already a top pairing guy at 24 and he's on a good contract. You'd be hard pressed to get that in a trade without giving up star roster player.

goalies get traded often and at the time, Kipper wasn't a star. Dougie was already really good and improving, those kinds of players don't get traded often and when they do it's usually for equally good players (Jones for Johanson)

This is generally my take on the definition of a "fleecing", although it seems from the responses in this thread like the general CP populace favors the definition of overall value garnered vs price spent, with the Kiprusoff pick.

[nik-]

Originally Posted by Vinny01

I don't see how the Kipper trade was a fleecing?

Flames got a franchise goalie for 9 years and the Sharks got a top pairing Dman for the length of his career. Kipper wasn't a star goalie when he was traded but proved to be that very quickly on his time in Calgary. The deal would have been a fleecing but the Sharks made good on the draft pick so that negates that trade being a fleecing for Calgary. Both teams gambled on an unknown and hit bigtime.


The Hamilton deal as many mentioned was a clear fleecing and has only been solidified further by Dpugie's play. The Bruins didn't help the situation that night by drafting off the board with the 15th pick. Hamilton coming to Calgary after scoring 41pts as a 21 year old and follows up with 43pts as a 22 year old and 50pts as a top pairing D at 23. The Flames knew they were trading for a budding star Dman and he hasn't disappointed.

Because the Flames didn't trade a top pairing D man. They traded a second round pick. The Sharks lucked out on that pick and it turned out great for them.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that Sutter wasn't using that pick on a D man out of the Q anyway.

[Sylvanfan]

In a way it's fascinating how the Flames made out pretty well with some of the deals with St.Louis in getting Mullen, Gilmour, Mark Hunter due to the Blues not having the financial clout the Flames did. I'm sure even the Wamsley, and Rob Ramage for Brett Hull deal had some financial motivation to it as well for St.Louis.

But eventually things turned the other way. St.Louis got a future superstar from the Flames, gained the financial advantage and were able to get players from the Flames for pennies on the dollar.

[Inferno]

Originally Posted by nik-

The Sharks lucked out on that pick and it turned out great for them.

And you can say the Flames lucked out that Kipper turned into the goalie he did. Things may not have turned out the same for him on another team.
Whether the Flames would have picked Vlasic or not shouldn't matter. The deal worked out for both teams in the end so I wouldn't call it a fleecing.

[Vinny01]

Originally Posted by nik-

Because the Flames didn't trade a top pairing D man. They traded a second round pick. The Sharks lucked out on that pick and it turned out great for them.

I think it's a pretty safe bet that Sutter wasn't using that pick on a D man out of the Q anyway.

The Sharks were trading a 3rd strong goalie and his numbers reflected that at the time. When Boston traded Hamilton they knew they were moving a top 4 RHD that just turned 22.

[browna]

Derek Morris and McAmmond and Shantz for Drury and Yelle was fantastic.

Morris was a bum who had no desire, even at that age, to use his natural ability to take it to the elite level.

He was content being a 1b or 2a guy, jumping from team to team in the subsequent years, making a good salary, with each new team thinking he had unlocked potential given his raw talent and flashes of brilliance. He did, but had no desire to unlock it and content to float.

Drury was super skilled player at the time, and though the Flames couldn’t afford to re sign him, Sutter turned him into Reniprecht (hurt in the first shift of the preseason, I think Reinprecht didn’t disclose that injury fully) and Warrener the next offseason.

McAmmond they tried to reaquire later that season, and did at the trade deadline but was ineligble the rest of that season.

Warrener and Yelle were warriors, smart professionals and tough as nails (or sandpaper) and integral a year later to get to the playoffs and make a run as they did to the Cup.

It was a fleece at the time just before the start of that season and played out that way through the next few years as Morris was nowhere near the player he could’ve and should’ve been, and the Flames sold high on him.

Also, to a lesser degree, Sergi Krivokrasov for Cale Hulse. To get anything for Hulse was a fleecing, but getting a skilled winger, who had upside, if only for a few months, for a clueless player like Hulse was addition by subtraction.

[Jason14h]

Maybe not biggest ever, but Langkow for Saprykin and Gauthier was a rip off

[Mister Yamoto]

Jason Wiemer for Sandy Mcarthy and a 3rd.

Worst Flames trade ever. The 3rd turned out to be Brad Richards, who won the Conn Smythe for beating the Flames in the 04 finals.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

Maybe not biggest ever, but Langkow for Saprykin and Gauthier was a rip off

Good call. That one fits the criteria of fleecing more than most of what's been discussed IMO.

[Flames Draft Watcher]

Originally Posted by Mister Yamoto

Jason Wiemer for Sandy Mcarthy and a 3rd.

Worst Flames trade ever. The 3rd turned out to be Brad Richards, who won the Conn Smythe for beating the Flames in the 04 finals.

No because the trade wasn't for Brad Richards, it was for a 3rd.

Savard for Zainullin is clearly a worse trade.

How about trading up in the draft to take Trevor Kidd? Meanwhile Brodeur is the goalie taken after.