Toronto Blue Jays - Offseason Thread

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by ClubFlames

TAO is in fine off-season/mid-season/any losing streak over 2 games Jays suck, Roger suck form. Time to avoid this thread as much as I can.

Where the hell do you get Blue Jays suck out of the fact i'm saying they are a couple of pieces away from winning a World Series, and they need to be willing to take a couple of contracts on guys in their prime over kicking tires on 39 years olds to try and clone last year's team that couldn't get the job done?

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Parallex

And? They had Hendricks, Bryant, Russell, Baez, Contreras... not to mention a whole whack of guys that ended up being below market value for the money they got.

Newsflash. Those guys are more valuable then our guys. Nothing against our guys but they're not as good. The Jays are not this off-season in the same situation as the Cubs were last off-season. They can't act the same way.

They're going to prudently spend money to maintain the level of success they're currently enjoying until the next wave of young talent they're building comes up to enhance the veteran talent. Sanchez, Stroman, Osuna, Travis, Pillar are all pre-arbitration.... this is true, so they're not going to jeopardize their ability to retain them when the Gurriels/Guerraros/Tellezs/Zuechs arrive.

They're trying to build something sustainable not have some transactional orgy that results in a bloated payroll of post-apex players and no farm system.

But by the time the next generation of talent is ready, Tulo, Martin, and Donaldson will be long gone and more likely than not so will the majority of our starting rotation. They need to make one last effort to win those guys or move on to a new strategy with Sanchez/Stroman and use the other pieces as a way to replenish the minor league system.

I don't consider adding players to try and clone last year's team as trying to win when they don't address our biggest issues. I see it as trying to draw blood from a rock.

The time to win for the Jays is now, and if means extending a long contract to someone, you do it. All those prospects you named may not ever amount to anything.

[SuperMatt18]

I think the Cubs just prove you don't have to go to the top of the Free Agent market, and that smart mid-tier signings can be more impactful.

Somebody like Heyward for $23M over 8 years didn't really make them any better come playoff time.

But Zobrist for 4 years at $14M though ended up being a bargain though.

Similar to the Price vs Happ arguments for the Jays last year, and in the end their decision to take the lower risk, less upside path looks like the right one now.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by SuperMatt18

I think the Cubs just prove you don't have to go to the top of the Free Agent market, and that smart mid-tier signings can be more impactful.

Somebody like Heyward for $23M over 8 years didn't really make them any better come playoff time.

But Zobrist for 4 years at $14M though ended up being a bargain though.

Similar to the Price vs Happ arguments for the Jays last year, and in the end their decision to take the lower risk, less upside path looks like the right one now.

I can get on board with that, but I don't see the Jays doing that, I see them going after one-dimensional players past their prime in order to avoid having to give any amount of term.

Hopefully it's just the MLBPA negotiations slowing negotiations down between free agents and teams, and the Jays will fill some holes when that is done, but I'm not that impressed with Morales and them being linked to guys like Beltran when he's not really what they need.

Maybe the Jays come through and sign Edwin to play 1st base and Reddick to play RF. Who knows at this point? I'm just not getting that vibe. I'm getting the vibe that Morales will be our DH, Beltran will be in RF, and Smoak will be at 1st. To me that's a downgrade from last year, without even considering the fact that it hasn't addressed our problem.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I wouldn't mind Beltran as an every day first basemen, but I suspect they are looking at him to fill the right field spot though. There are tons of available outfielders out there that can fill a need for the Jays. Reddick, Fowler, Desmond, Holliday, just to name a few without considering trade.

You don't get the point on the salary. Why spend 150M when if you aren't willing to add one-two pieces more to get you over the hump? Do what you need to do to win now. #### or get off the pot. Signing a guy like Beltran is exactly the way a small market team would operate. Can be had without term so go with him over better options that better fit your needs.

Holliday isn't coming to Toronto, and even if he could, he is the same a Beltran. An aging veteran with declining defensive skills.

Reddick would be a good pick up, but last year kind of puts a damper on what he can do in the future and doesn't make the idea of signing him to a 4+ year deal all that appetizing.

Also, like all baseball teams, the jays have internal budgets. One that sees Donaldson up for a massive pay raise, increasing Tulo salary, and inceasing Martin salary. All of that is a decision that the team needs to make when signing new guys.

Again, I think its merely proper due diligence if/when the chips start to fall. Washington was a big player in free agency last year and basically got skunked when everyone signed elsewhere. Thank god they snagged Murphy or that season could've played differently for them.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The Cubs were a good team with excellent pitching on the verge of being great and went out and added Heyward and Zobrist to fill the glaring holes in their lineup (Lackey was the cherry on top). Needing a 1st basemen and and outfielder.........seems familiar

They didn't go and add a bunch of 35+ year olds on short/one year contracts, they went and got guys who were in their prime on long term contracts. And guess what, if it hadn't worked out, they could move both those piece to another team and move on.

The Chicago Cubs payroll was 171M. Not much more than the Jays just enough to fill some glaring holes, which comes back to the age old saying, the Jays need to #### or get off the pot.

Did the cubs, though?

Seems most of that team was the "core" from the rebuild - Bryant, Rizzo, Soler, Russell.

They went after Heyward, paid him god awful money and watched that crash and burn.

They took a flyer on Fowler after his deal fell through - gave him a one year deal. Zobrist was 34 when he signed his deal and gets paid until 38. John Lackey signed last year at 37.

They could also add those guys to longer terms because their core is like 25 years old. Not 30 like the jays.

Donaldson, Tulo, Edwin, Estrada, MArtin, Happ, Liriano - all these guys have few years left at greatness. when they bottom out, it may not be the best time to have a gamble like Heyward on your roster.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

Guy who called the team together during a rain delay and got the boys all on the same page and went out to win in extra innings resulting in a world series win.

23 million over 8 years is nothing compared to a championship

Or you know, the pitchers got cold and gave up a few singles... that's never happened after a rain delay.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Did the cubs, though?

Seems most of that team was the "core" from the rebuild - Bryant, Rizzo, Soler, Russell.

They went after Heyward, paid him god awful money and watched that crash and burn.

They took a flyer on Fowler after his deal fell through - gave him a one year deal. Zobrist was 34 when he signed his deal and gets paid until 38. John Lackey signed last year at 37.

The Jays core is locked in as well, though the Cubs's core is better.

I don't mind one year terms, it's just frustrating that the Jays appear to not be willing to give any amount of term to address a weakness. They don't appear to be willing to go in on a player like Zobrist.

And you're right, Hayward has sucked, but at some point you have to be willing to take a chance. You might fall flat on your face, but you have to be willing to at least try it.

When I talk about small market mentality, i'm not comparing Toronto's budget to Milwaukee's. Obviously Toronto has a pretty healthy payroll, but i'm comparing the approach. I understand why a team like Milwaukee would be very cautious in handing out a 5 year contract. I don't really understand why a team like Toronto has to be (well I do but I'll just get yelled at for bitching about Rogers again).

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Cappy

Or you know, the pitchers got cold and gave up a few singles... that's never happened after a rain delay.

My favourite time it happened was in New York in late September and the Jays ended up destroying the Yankees

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I don't consider adding players to try and clone last year's team as trying to win when they don't address our biggest issues.

Our biggest issue is replacing the win value lost by (presumably) departing players. Trying to clone last year's team, without shooting yourself in the foot longterm, accomplishes precisely that.

It's like this... we have Donaldson & Happ under control for two more years Russell for three, Tulo for four. As those guys drop off we can afford to keep Sanchez, Stroman, Pillar, Travis, Osuna. Going out a blowing money on a weak top tier free agent class endangers that. I think the smart move is to squeeze enough value out of the mid-tier free agents to replicate the success this year and get your way to the next round of homegrown talent.

Think of it this way, in a few years (in dollars and talent)...

Sanchez/Stroman = Lester/Ariatta
Russell = Montero
Osuna = Rondon
Pillar = Heyward (Except less expansive)

and right now we're waiting for our Baez, Soler, Bryant, A. Russell, and Kendrick to make their way to the majors.

That's what the guys we're going to sign now are for... a bridge to stay competitive until the next wave of talent arrives and then we can spluge on Chapmans and Zobrists.

Rogers is giving the Jays the resources they need and I believe in what I think the vision of the current front office is.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

The Jays core is locked in as well, though the Cubs's core is better.

I don't mind one year terms, it's just frustrating that the Jays appear to not be willing to give any amount of term to address a weakness. They don't appear to be willing to go in on a player like Zobrist.

And you're right, Hayward has sucked, but at some point you have to be willing to take a chance. You might fall flat on your face, but you have to be willing to at least try it.

When I talk about small market mentality, i'm not comparing Toronto's budget to Milwaukee's. Obviously Toronto has a pretty healthy payroll, but i'm comparing the approach. I understand why a team like Milwaukee would be very cautious in handing out a 5 year contract. I don't really understand why a team like Toronto has to be (well I do but I'll just get yelled at for bitching about Rogers again).

I agree 100% that this is the time. If they sold the farm this year on a good lead off guy or something, i dont think it would've have bothered me.

I guess, im not disagreeing with your opinion, I just understand where the team is coming from and can justify it.

While we are certainly not small market, we aren't the Cubbies either. Yeah they have a small payroll right now, but you dont hear anything about the owners getting worried about having to pay Rizzo or Bryant when they become FA's. They have been able to produce a great team for "relatively" cheap, but they are certainly willing to hit 250+ if need be.

It's still early too. There has been one major signing - Morales, by the Jays. They are being aggressive, but also waiting out the market. I'm sure they have expressed interest in all the right guys and ask them to keep the Jays in the loop if better offers come along.

A guy like Reddick won't sign too early unless someone takes a big risk on him.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Cappy

I agree 100% that this is the time. If they sold the farm this year on a good lead off guy or something, i dont think it would've have bothered me.

I guess, im not disagreeing with your opinion, I just understand where the team is coming from and can justify it.

While we are certainly not small market, we aren't the Cubbies either. Yeah they have a small payroll right now, but you dont hear anything about the owners getting worried about having to pay Rizzo or Bryant when they become FA's. They have been able to produce a great team for "relatively" cheap, but they are certainly willing to hit 250+ if need be.

It's still early too. There has been one major signing - Morales, by the Jays. They are being aggressive, but also waiting out the market. I'm sure they have expressed interest in all the right guys and ask them to keep the Jays in the loop if better offers come along.

A guy like Reddick won't sign too early unless someone takes a big risk on him.

I'm really not a fan of the Morales signing. I'm not saying it's cheap or anything like that, I just think he's too slow, one dimensional, and given he's not able to even play a position, he really limits the Blue Jays flexibility. Another one dimensional player is not what the Jays needed to be spending the budget they do have in my opinion.

Signing him signified to me that Justin Smoak is going to be our every day first basemen, and I think that's what really has me riled up about it. Smoak has the potential to have me go postal next season.

[Cappy]

Originally Posted by TheAlpineOracle

I'm really not a fan of the Morales signing. I'm not saying it's cheap or anything like that, I just think he's too slow, one dimensional, and given he's not able to even play a position, he really limits the Blue Jays flexibility. Another one dimensional player is not what the Jays needed to be spending the budget they do have in my opinion.

Signing him signified to me that Justin Smoak is going to be our every day first basemen, and I think that's what really has me riled up about it. Smoak has the potential to have me go postal next season.

I think when you lose 80 home runs in a season to FA, you need to replace them.

signing some slap hitter to play DH doesnt make any sense.

[Cappy]

I don't want to beat a dead horse either, but all the comparisons to the great Chicago Cubs of 2016 fail to mention that our offences were extremely similar.

[Roof-Daddy]

Reddick 4/$52 to the Astros

There goes that option

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Reddick 4/$50 to the Astros

There goes that option

Damnit.

[bluejays]

Originally Posted by fundmark19

Guy who called the team together during a rain delay and got the boys all on the same page and went out to win in extra innings resulting in a world series win.

23 million over 8 years is nothing compared to a championship

I'm not sure I understand the statement. Do you not think as professional players in their biggest ever career game they weren't on the same page? Does a speech make that much of a difference? I'm all for good team players, but I put about 1% of my stock into these types of arguments. They executed at the right time, that's all. He's still never going to be worth his money.

[Inferno]

There was an interview on Tim and Sid with Edwin's agent today.

Other than the Jays there's 5 other teams after Edwin and that they've talked with the Jays within the last couple of days. He was asked without giving the exact number if the 4 year/80M deal rumor was close to what they were offered and he said that would be fairly accurate. He said it was made just before he rejected his qualifying offer and said while it wasn't what they were looking for it wasn't insulting either.

He said Edwin thinks this will be his last contract so he wants to see what he's worth. He's in no rush to sign but would sign tomorrow if the right contract was offered which hasn't happened yet.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Roof-Daddy

Reddick 4/$52 to the Astros

Ouch. That's an awfully rich contract, about 13M more then I'd be comfortable with.

[TheAlpineOracle]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Ouch. That's an awfully rich contract, about 13M more then I'd be comfortable with.

It's exactly what everyone knew he was going to get. 4 years at 13 per. I don't see the "ouch" in this contract at all. We'd all be pleased as punch if he signed that same contact with the Jays.