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Old 05-03-2017, 08:35 PM   #481
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Canadians are also incredibly isolationist. Our greatest global contributions were as members of the Commonwealth. As we drifted to the American sphere, we have increasingly off-loaded our defence obligations to them, even as anti-Americanism has turned into a veritable pillar of Canadian political culture.
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Old 05-03-2017, 10:13 PM   #482
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Who Killed the Canadian Military by Jack Granatstein is a good in-depth explanation that pretty much follows what CC laid down.

I disagree with CC a bit on how much the military has changed since WW2. During that war, Canada fielded a full field army for the first and last time. The Canadians had to learn everything from scratch but by 1945, had an army capable of taking on elite, well-equipped German divisions through a well-honed combined arms doctrine. Artillery, for instance, was far more comprehensively integrated in infantry. We have fallen a very long ways.
If people really want to get a military 101 course Granatstein has an outstanding handle on the Canadian Military and the issues with the Political Military relationship.

Who killed the Canadian Military, who's war is it anyways and best little army in the world are all great books.

I get what your argument, however the Canadian military reached its height in the years between WW2 and Korea, we had a outstanding Navy including naval aviation in terms of HMCS then the Magnificent and finally the Bonaventure.

By the end of the second World War we had the 5th largest Navy in the world and pretty much were a presence in the Northern Atlantic and a valued ally in the cold war. We were also one of the strongest navies in the world in terms of anti-submarine effectiveness.

But Lester Pearson fired the beginning shots in terms of the destruction of the Military because he didn't have an understanding of what a Military's role actually is. To a lesser extent Paul "Crazy" Hellyer had a major hand in the destruction of the Forces with his somewhat correct but taken way to far integration of the Canadian Navy, Army and Airforce under one umbrella to form the Canadian Forces. It destroyed moral, and training and removed the pride and heritage of the Military.

The army suffered in a similar manner in that the draw down after WW2 was expected but they kept a strong veteran leadership core that carried it through Korea. The Army was well trained and well equip but under successive governments who proved to be clueless we frittered away the strength of the army and pushed competent senior leadership out in the name of replacing them with bureaucrats and desk pilots. We also failed in terms of understanding that the strength of the military in the late 20th and early 21st century was competence backed heavily by technology. Frankly the name of the game for a small army is effective killing ratios or leverage your technology to allow your one soldier to kill a lot of enemies. Due to lowered moral and retention our training and kit suffered and turned the army into a shell of what could have been.

The Airforce in particular has been a failure mainly due to finding a cheap solution and a confusing strategy that lead to the horrible CF-5 and the CF-101 purchases and the doomed to fail Avro Arrow program, which in itself failed due to over promises and the reliant on a single role interceptor fighter when Canada should have focused on the concept of a capable plane that could multi-role.

At the end of the day, the fault lies with the government. But it also lies with the senior officers who threw up their hands and gave up instead of fighting to keep the military in a seat at the table.
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:43 AM   #483
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At the end of the day, the fault lies with the government. But it also lies with the senior officers who threw up their hands and gave up instead of fighting to keep the military in a seat at the table.
For shiggles, I would be interested to see how the Military ran if it was run by senior NCMs, instead of senior officers.
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Old 05-04-2017, 08:53 AM   #484
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I was just sitting here and wondering, because of the expected costs of the Superhornet at a ridiculously $380 some million per jet for 12 years of service.

If we went back to Lockheed Martin and said, hey maaaaaannnnn we're buying 18 Super Hornets for 12 years at $7 million bucks. With delivery in 2020.

What can you do.

I'm betting Lockheed Martin would probably fall over themselves to get us 18 F-35's by 2020 for less then the Super Hornets.
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:24 AM   #485
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So I would have totally gone to the fundraiser for Veterans of Afghanistan but I totally had to work on my speech.

http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/2017/05..._16409462.html

I'm going to be watching the defense policy delivery by the government.

The hits keep coming for the beleaguered DND as the controversy over tax breaks for over seas troops has reared its ugly head again. I would expect that the opposition parties are going to have a field day with this one.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/troops-...them-1.3397349

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OTTAWA -- Canadian troops who lost a tax benefit while serving in Kuwait say they're being punished for speaking out against the change.
Canadian Armed Forces members working on the mission against the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria say, despite a House of Commons vote in favour of reinstating their tax-free benefit, the 15 people serving at Camp Arifjan still won't be getting their incomes tax-free.
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When the military members pursued the disparity, they were told they got an extension on the benefit, "so that is that," an officer in Ottawa wrote in an email provided to CTV News.
"Non-grievable through the CAF system. But if anyone thinks they have been hard done by (still), then I suggest they use their member of Parliament," the email said.
Despite that response, some of the troops told CTV News that the military started questioning them to find out who emailed the MPs.
"Surely the Government of Canada can afford to treat the soldiers in Arifjan fairly. There are after all, only 15 of us," one person said in the email to MPs.
The minister, the military member said, recognized that the level of hardship is the same for all members serving in Kuwait.
"It is clear we all share the same conditions but are to be paid very differently. On the face of it, the order seems vindictive," the soldier wrote to MPs.
In another email, the CAF member said it's "unfathomable" to provide different benefits for members posted an hour's drive apart.
"Those in Camp Arifjan apparently are the target of their own government. How sad is that?" the troop wrote.
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:53 AM   #486
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At the end of the day, the fault lies with the government. But it also lies with the senior officers who threw up their hands and gave up instead of fighting to keep the military in a seat at the table.
I agree but also place some of the fault with us (voters) for not telling our governments that national defence and security were/are a major priority. Poll after poll shows healthcare spending, education, taxes, economy etc. as the main concerns of citizens and we rarely see security or defence on a list.
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Old 05-04-2017, 10:58 AM   #487
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I agree but also place some of the fault with us (voters) for not telling our governments that national defence and security were/are a major priority. Poll after poll shows healthcare spending, education, taxes, economy etc. as the main concerns of citizens and we rarely see security or defence on a list.
As I stated above, we are incredibly isolationist in a certain sense.

A huge problem, in regards to voter preference, is that often procurement is used as a way of buying votes in the Maritimes, and Quebec.

Bombardier is a huge albatross around the neck of Canadians, and especially, the Forces.

We love to Canadianize off the shelf hardware, but often gain only marginal improvement with accompanying massive increase in costs.

The Iltis jeep is a great example. They cost something like $26,000 if we bought them straight through the German manufacturer. Instead, we bought the designs, and gave the contract to Bombardier who produced them for $84,000 a pop! That's just criminal.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:08 AM   #488
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The Iltis jeep is a great example. They cost something like $26,000 if we bought them straight through the German manufacturer. Instead, we bought the designs, and gave the contract to Bombardier who produced them for $84,000 a pop! That's just criminal.
It doesn't matter who you bought that POS from or what you paid.


It was still junk.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:09 AM   #489
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It doesn't matter who you bought that POS from or what you paid.


It was still junk.
So I hear. But at least junk should be cheap.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:17 AM   #490
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As I stated above, we are incredibly isolationist in a certain sense.

A huge problem, in regards to voter preference, is that often procurement is used as a way of buying votes in the Maritimes, and Quebec.

Bombardier is a huge albatross around the neck of Canadians, and especially, the Forces.

We love to Canadianize off the shelf hardware, but often gain only marginal improvement with accompanying massive increase in costs.

The Iltis jeep is a great example. They cost something like $26,000 if we bought them straight through the German manufacturer. Instead, we bought the designs, and gave the contract to Bombardier who produced them for $84,000 a pop! That's just criminal.
I don't know if its isolationist as much as we're constantly being sold a illusion.

The over romanticizing of Peace Keeping. "We're a nation of Peace keepers" We need some jeeps a natty beret and a pistol. Then we can stand bravely between two warring sides and they'll back down.

To some extent a lot of Canadian's see the Military as a slightly more heavily armed international police force.

But the truth is that the world has changed and Canadians didn't pay attention. Peace keeping as a whole is a failed concept and the world and the UN have accepted that any UN deployment now is about peace enforcement and anti-terror operations. Canadians' especially have learned some hard lessons but never appreciated the whys. Afghanistan and the other deployments where Canadians have seen mounting casualties, or seen civilian slaughters because of a UN/Canada that's incapable of thinking in military terms are often stories that are ignored here, or painted over with a romantic brush.

As well, Canadian's have been sold the soiled Bullsh%% concept of the little army that punches over its head. So we have this idea that the Forces can be neglected and ignored and then suddenly deployed to any hot spot and our guts and toughness will carry us through and we can spend money at that moment.

We saw this in Afghanistan when Canadian Troops disembarked with wood land Cammo, woefully terrible Iltis Jeeps and other examples of being poorly equip as we rolled out of foreign rented planes and depended on logistics from other nations.

Don't worry fellas, instead of having a pro-active defense strategy, we'll have a reactive one, send our troops out and maybe pay for this strategy in blood and then hurriedly try to fix it on the fly.

We haven't had a comprehensive well thought out defense strategy since the late 60's. Instead we ignored it and prayed that we didn't have to use it. And then we had Prime Ministers that callously deployed woefully under equipt or trained troops and put lives on the line with the public relations view of look, we're doing something, we're punching above our weight, love us admire us.

There's a significant problem when our allies admire the strength and courage and spirit of our troops and then wonder why we're so incapable, and why we don't support the men and woman that do this job.

We've had a long string of weak defense ministers, even Peter McKay who did a pretty good job of at least getting the military into the discussion failed like the rest in terms of sitting at the budget table and not fighting harder for the Military.

When Justin laid out his military spending plans where he basically sh%tcanned the military, Saijan should have called BS. Instead he stood up on Wednesday with a whiny speech about the forces being hollowed out and basically promised nothing.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:18 AM   #491
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It doesn't matter who you bought that POS from or what you paid.


It was still junk.
Everytime I think of the Iltis jeep my teeth grind.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:27 AM   #492
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Just finished up "The Best Little Army in the World" last night. Such an excellent book. I had no idea that the 1st Parachute Battalion basically saved Denmark from Soviet occupation.
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Old 05-04-2017, 11:35 AM   #493
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So I hear. But at least junk should be cheap.
hehe, better get rid of that attitude soon son.
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:03 PM   #494
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https://www.facebook.com/CANArmy/vid...1187718973203/

And you guys say the CF doesn't have good gear...
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Old 05-04-2017, 09:18 PM   #495
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jeez in my day you could trade a choco bar like that and get back 4 packs of smokes
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Old 05-08-2017, 09:09 AM   #496
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nm
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Old 05-08-2017, 09:47 AM   #497
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This deployment due to floods of over 1000 troops is going to take a major bite out of the defense budget.

Watching the press conference with the major in charge and people standing behind him holding up signs that said Troops too late was tough to watch.
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:38 AM   #498
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This deployment due to floods of over 1000 troops is going to take a major bite out of the defense budget.

Watching the press conference with the major in charge and people standing behind him holding up signs that said Troops too late was tough to watch.
Thus adding more impetus to spend more, not less. We can't even deploy in a timely manner to protect our own people from unfolding natural events.
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:49 AM   #499
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. We can't even deploy in a timely manner to protect our own people from unfolding natural events.
Hang on here.

What was the timeline from mobilization to being on site?

It is my understanding that this is an issue of the military being ask too late, not being asked but being to slow to get there in time.
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Old 05-08-2017, 10:51 AM   #500
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Hang on here.

What was the timeline from mobilization to being on site?

It is my understanding that this is an issue of the military being ask too late, not being asked but being to slow to get there in time.
You are correct sir. They didn't ask the Military to come in until late in the game and it sounds like they asked for a small deployment, and then when the Military got there it was like, umm we need more dudes.
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