07-11-2013, 11:35 AM
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#501
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Fearmongerer
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Wondering when # became hashtag and not a number sign.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOT
And besides the guy who shot a kid, who else can back up these events?
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Up to the prosecution to prove otherwise.
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07-11-2013, 11:36 AM
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#502
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#1 Goaltender
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: Richmond, BC
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If this was a wannabe-cop black guy shooting a white kid, we all know how this would have gone.
That's not to say Zimmerman is guilty (I think he is), it's just a sad commentary on the way things work in Florida (and the US in general).
__________________
"For thousands of years humans were oppressed - as some of us still are - by the notion that the universe is a marionette whose strings are pulled by a god or gods, unseen and inscrutable." - Carl Sagan
Freedom consonant with responsibility.
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07-11-2013, 11:37 AM
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#503
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Sylvan Lake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
It's more complicated than that. This all occurred in a gated community where Zimmerman was the elected program coordinator of the neighbourhood watch within that community.
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Where did you hear this, I heard he was "self appointed".
__________________
Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Corporal Jean-Marc H. BECHARD, 6 Aug 1993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliver
Just ignore me...I'm in a mood today.
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07-11-2013, 11:38 AM
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#504
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In the Sin Bin
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOT
And besides the guy who shot a kid, who else can back up these events?
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Innocent until proven guilty?
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07-11-2013, 11:39 AM
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#505
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
If it's true that Trayvon chased Zimmerman down after he'd ended his pursuit, that definitely pushes things more towards the manslaughter realm and away from murder.
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If (heavy heavy emphasis on if) that's true it's a big enough push to bypass manslaughter altogether and reach self-defense.
Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOT
And besides the guy who shot a kid, who else can back up these events?
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The several witnesses testifying.
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07-11-2013, 11:41 AM
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#506
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Maryland State House, Annapolis
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Prosecution would probably have gotten a conviction on manslaughter if that had been their initial plan. Going for the murder charge was not wise at all.
__________________
"Think I'm gonna be the scapegoat for the whole damn machine? Sheeee......."
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07-11-2013, 11:42 AM
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#507
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Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Marseilles Of The Prairies
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You guys are dumb.
There's no way a guy who owns a gun would ever shoot a black kid.
__________________
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrMastodonFarm
Settle down there, Temple Grandin.
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07-11-2013, 11:42 AM
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#508
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
That's pretty irrelevant here. He had also broken off contact with Martin and was returning to his truck. Martin was no longer in any kind of jeopardy. When Martin basically chased down Zimmerman pinned him down and started basically beating on him, he became the aggressor. Non of the prior pursuit at that point matters in this case.
Its not murder, its manslaughter at best. In the eyes of the law it could very well be defined as self defense.
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Bull####. You can't honestly believe that a confrontation that happened moments earlier had no bearing on the event.
Come on man.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MisterJoji
Johnny eats garbage and isn’t 100% committed.
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07-11-2013, 11:43 AM
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#509
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CP Pontiff
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: A pasture out by Millarville
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch
That's pretty irrelevant here. He had also broken off contact with Martin and was returning to his truck. Martin was no longer in any kind of jeopardy. When Martin basically chased down Zimmerman pinned him down and started basically beating on him, he became the aggressor. Non of the prior pursuit at that point matters in this case.
Its not murder, its manslaughter at best. In the eyes of the law it could very well be defined as self defense.
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The prosecution lawyers probably thought they had an uphill battle right from the start after the politically motivated charges from their fearful leader looking to push the decision onto a jury.
Generally, internally in the court room, the prosecution has not attempted to make any murder case based on race. That's pretty telling.
External to the court room, lots of people are still trying to whip up the race card, basically ignoring what's going on in the courtroom.
The prosecution seems to have given up on 2nd degree murder by agreeing with the defence that Martin being on top of Zimmerman is a credible alternative explanation. It was the prosecution that agreed in front of the jury there is reasonable doubt for murder.
Manslaughter is a possibility but I think the Creepy Cracker will walk. As he should.
Cowperson
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Dear Lord, help me to be the kind of person my dog thinks I am. - Anonymous
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07-11-2013, 12:01 PM
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#510
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Ate 100 Treadmills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Senator Clay Davis
Prosecution would probably have gotten a conviction on manslaughter if that had been their initial plan. Going for the murder charge was not wise at all.
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Manslaughter is an included offence to murder. It's common for failed murder-2 charges to end up in manslaughter convictions.
It can also be advantageous to pursue the higher offence, as it creates a feeling of compromise within the jury. There's to stop you from pursuing the elements of manslaughter during your murder trial.
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07-11-2013, 12:10 PM
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#511
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Clinching Party
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Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
It's more complicated than that. This all occurred in a gated community where Zimmerman was the elected program coordinator of the neighbourhood watch within that community.
The gated community is private property. It was Zimmerman's job to investigate suspicious people on that property. Zimmerman may have been totally out of line stopping Trayvon in the first place. However, even though that might be racist that's not, in itself, a crime. It should also be kept in mind that Zimmerman is 1/8th black and does not look white in any way. That, however, doesn't stop someone from being racist towards someone who is more black.
Then again, Zimmerman was dealing with a rash of break-ins in the community involving suspects that fit Trayvon's description. Trayvon was also not a resident of the community, but staying as a guest. Zimmerman would, therefore, not have known who he was. The community was 260 town houses, so Zimmerman probably knew all of the residents.
There are a lot of things going on in this case, and the media has been out of control.
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None of that has anything to do with the actual shooting of the kid.
Although I am kind of interested in hearing about this "election".
Quote:
Originally Posted by blankall
If it's true that Trayvon chased Zimmerman down after he'd ended his pursuit, that definitely pushes things more towards the manslaughter realm and away from murder.
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I haven't followed terribly closely... where does the "chased him down" explanation come from? I read a few stories in the lamestream media and none of them mentioned it.
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07-11-2013, 12:10 PM
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#512
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Crash and Bang Winger
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Quote:
Originally Posted by transplant99
Up to the prosecution to prove otherwise.
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Justification is an affirmative defense...
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07-11-2013, 12:18 PM
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#513
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Franchise Player
Join Date: May 2006
Location: @HOOT250
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Quote:
Originally Posted by polak
Innocent until proven guilty?
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I agree with that. I'm just saying people are taking the events of the guy who is alive and shot a kid like it's gold. I haven't followed the case, the drama is too much for me really, so I don't know all the details but it just seems funny to me how people are so sure that the events happened like they did based on the guy who shot a kid telling them so.
From the clips I have seen it seems both sides have holes in their case and Zimmerman has been caught in a few lies with details. IMO he should have never been following him to start and let the police deal with it but he wanted to be a hero because his whole life he has failed at doing so.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by henriksedin33
Not at all, as I've said, I would rather start with LA over any of the other WC playoff teams. Bunch of underachievers who look good on paper but don't even deserve to be in the playoffs.
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07-11-2013, 12:22 PM
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#514
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Ate 100 Treadmills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by undercoverbrother
Where did you hear this, I heard he was "self appointed".
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http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/23/us...ups.html?_r=2&
http://www.nbcmiami.com/news/local/T...143579196.html
However, I should correct myself. There is no evidence of an election. He may have been appointed by the watch itself, but he was definitely the appointed head of that watch.
Various national neighborhood watch programs have spoken out about how Zimmerman's group was not registered with them. However, there's no such thing as an official neighborhood watch body. Also, as previously stated, the shooting occurred on private property. Assuming the strata okayed the patrols, Zimmerman would have been well within his rights to question strangers on the strata grounds.
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07-11-2013, 12:26 PM
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#515
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Ate 100 Treadmills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos
None of that has anything to do with the actual shooting of the kid.
Although I am kind of interested in hearing about this "election".
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As I stated in my previous post, I shouldn't have used the word election. He was probably just appointed.
And yes, him being appointed as the head of a neighbourhood watch on private property is relevant to this case. We are looking specifically at what happened directly before the shooting to establish men's rea. It's just as relevant as the prosecutiong and the media using Zimmerman's racist beliefs to establish murder.
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07-11-2013, 12:30 PM
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#516
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Mar 2012
Location: Sylvan Lake
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOT
I agree with that. I'm just saying people are taking the events of the guy who is alive and shot a kid like it's gold. I haven't followed the case, the drama is too much for me really, so I don't know all the details but it just seems funny to me how people are so sure that the events happened like they did based on the guy who shot a kid telling them so.
From the clips I have seen it seems both sides have holes in their case and Zimmerman has been caught in a few lies with details. IMO he should have never been following him to start and let the police deal with it but he wanted to be a hero because his whole life he has failed at doing so.
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I agree with your post, but was wondering what you based the last part of your last sentence on?
__________________
Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
Corporal Jean-Marc H. BECHARD, 6 Aug 1993
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sliver
Just ignore me...I'm in a mood today.
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07-11-2013, 12:35 PM
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#517
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Franchise Player
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Quote:
Originally Posted by HOOT
I agree with that. I'm just saying people are taking the events of the guy who is alive and shot a kid like it's gold.
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Who?
For someone admittedly not following the details of the case, why are you suggesting what others are doing?
The shift in belief of Zimmerman being a white racist who shot in cold blood an innocent black child that the media made him out to be when it happened to what others believe now is because of witness testimony, expert analysis and the rest of the defender's attorney's case.
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07-11-2013, 12:36 PM
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#518
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Franchise Player
Join Date: Oct 2001
Location: Vancouver
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The biggest problem here is that the head of a neighbourhood watch club gets to carry around a gun. A guy who wasn't good enough to be an officer of the law was appointed, likely be some other loser, to have authority.
His job should be to "watch the neighbourhood" and then tattle to the police. This guy is a walking and breathing poster for gun control. Even though I think he is guilty enough that he should be punished, he is a total product of the environment. It's a given that when you have lax gun control, cop wannabes, and "stand your ground" laws; it is going to end very badly for some people.
__________________
"A pessimist thinks things can't get any worse. An optimist knows they can."
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07-11-2013, 12:38 PM
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#519
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First Line Centre
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Calgary
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oling_Roachinen
The shift in belief of Zimmerman being a white racist who shot in cold blood an innocent black child that the media made him out to be when it happened to what others believe now is because of witness testimony, expert analysis and the rest of the defender's attorney's case.
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Seriously everyone needs to read this over and over.
There is no conspiracy against black people. There is just evidence, analysis, and critical thinking, where there wasn't before.
If your critical thinking and analysis leads you to the same conclusion as before, that is 100% valid. But pulling the "omg media is biased, he shot a "kid", Zimmerman wanted to be a hero" and other garbage remarks just makes your position look extremely weak.
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07-11-2013, 12:47 PM
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#520
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Ate 100 Treadmills
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Quote:
Originally Posted by FlamesAddiction
The biggest problem here is that the head of a neighbourhood watch club gets to carry around a gun. A guy who wasn't good enough to be an officer of the law was appointed, likely be some other loser, to have authority.
His job should be to "watch the neighbourhood" and then tattle to the police. This guy is a walking and breathing poster for gun control. Even though I think he is guilty enough that he should be punished, he is a total product of the environment. It's a given that when you have lax gun control, cop wannabes, and "stand your ground" laws; it is going to end very badly for some people.
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The Problem is wider than that. The problem is that the law in Florida allows anyone to carry a gun. The only requirement is an easily attainable permit. Zimmerman had even been arrested in 2005 for assaulting a police officer. Zimmerman also had a restraining order filed agaisnt him for an incident of domestic violence.
You'd be surprised how many people in a state like Florida are carrying guns. I'm not even an anti-gun guy, but having a large segment of the population carrying concealed handguns a day to day basis is just a bad idea.
In Zimmerman's defence, he was advised to get a gun by authorities following a run in with a pit bull:
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/...83O18H20120425
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