[News] Calgary, Alberta, & CSEC agree in principle to $1.223bn Event Centre + infrastructure

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by Tuco

Thank goodness. That was a big whiff.

New design doesn’t guarantee better.

[Tuco]

Can't be any worse!

[dammage79]

Why haven't the new designs been released yet? Usually they're out well before shovels go in the dirt

[Tuco]

Originally Posted by Freeway

It'll be VERY similar to the previous design. Functionally, they took the 2021 design and spaced it out a bit. It'll be less squished onto the block since they have a lot more space.

[Major Major]

Originally Posted by Freeway

Last time, they did one permit for everything, but couldn't do anything on the site until it was approved.

This time, they split up the work into different permits, so the excavation and shoring can be done as soon as those permits are approved, and then the actual building work once that permit is approved.


In short: they're still targeting post-Stampede.

That is mind boggling... Where is the extra cash going? Figured we'd at least get something nice...

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Tuco

Thank goodness. That was a big whiff.

What exactly was wrong with it functionally?

[Mass_nerder]

I'm glad it's less "design-y" than the Roger's Center, which already feels extremely dated.
Honestly, as long as it's detailed well, the understated design will age much better.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Tuco

That man is unimpressed and both he and his suspenders want everyone to know that.

[Tuco]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

What exactly was wrong with it functionally?

I need to find the plans again. I wasn't a fan of the seating; I was hoping for something more inverted. Poor use of suites, clubs, and restaurants was another thing that bothered me. It honestly just left me unimpressed, zero innovation.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Tuco

I need to find the plans again. I wasn't a fan of the seating; I was hoping for something more inverted. Poor use of suites, clubs, and restaurants was another thing that bothered me. It honestly just left me unimpressed, zero innovation.

A lot of arena builders have looked at the ‘inverted bowl’ design, but as far as I know they've all backed off from actually using it. It requires less real estate, but it's more expensive to build because of the extensive cantilevering required, and the extremely steep slope of the upper decks is not ideal for safety. The press level at the Saddledome gives me vertigo; the upper levels in an inverted bowl would likely be even steeper.

Frankly, there are enough excellent hockey arenas in North America that the Flames don't have to do more than copy what's already being done. Innovation often means being the first to make a mistake – which is why the Saddledome was the first and last arena built the way it was. All subsequent projects benefited by not repeating the same mistakes.

[Tuco]

@JayRandom


Intuit Dome looks like it will have cool seating. Little Caesars in Detroit has unique seating. Comparing PL's at the Dome to a modern-day venue is way out to lunch. If that's the case, though, hopefully, they can make bigger stairs.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Tuco

@JayRandom


Intuit Dome looks like it will have cool seating. Little Caesars in Detroit has unique seating. Comparing PL's at the Dome to a modern-day venue is way out to lunch. If that's the case, though, hopefully, they can make bigger stairs.

Little Caesars isn't an inverted bowl. In fact, Rossetti bragged that if they had designed Little Caesars, they could have had the same seating capacity while reducing the footprint of the building by 300,000 square feet.

I'm not comparing the PL's at the Dome to a modern arena. I'm comparing it to the inverted bowl, which, I believe, is a design idea that's going nowhere.

As far as I can tell, the main feature they're selling at Intuit Dome is improved court-side seating for basketball, which is possible because it's a basketball-only arena and they don't have to set the seats back to accommodate hockey. I'd be interested to hear what other features make it special.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Major Major

That is mind boggling... Where is the extra cash going? Figured we'd at least get something nice...

Inflation and the "community arena" is my guess. They said improvements to the "public realm" parts (whatever it is that they mean by that) when they announced it. I'd really hope that they improve on the retail screen they had in the previous design... that was lackluster.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Parallex

Inflation and the "community arena" is my guess. They said improvements to the "public realm" parts (whatever it is that they mean by that) when they announced it. I'd really hope that they improve on the retail screen they had in the previous design... that was lackluster.

The new price also includes money for an additional underpass on 6th Street, relocation of 5th Street to enlarge the arena site, and some other infrastructure work that wasn't considered part of the original deal.

I agree, the exterior of the old design was ugly. To me, it looked like the kind of exterior they slap on a parkade so you can't see that it's full of parked cars. But that's the easiest part of the whole project to remedy (and, unfortunately, the easiest to skimp on if they need to cut costs).

[Tuco]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

Little Caesars isn't an inverted bowl. In fact, Rossetti bragged that if they had designed Little Caesars, they could have had the same seating capacity while reducing the footprint of the building by 300,000 square feet.

I'm not comparing the PL's at the Dome to a modern arena. I'm comparing it to the inverted bowl, which, I believe, is a design idea that's going nowhere.

Detroit seems different from anything else. I wasn't aware that this was the norm. I stand corrected. Initially, I suggested something a bit more inverted. So, perhaps not a fully inverted bowl, but something more on top of the action. I'm probably using the wrong terminology, but I thought "inverted" meant more on top of the action.

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by Tuco

Detroit seems different from anything else. I wasn't aware that this was the norm. I stand corrected. Initially, I suggested something a bit more inverted. So, perhaps not a fully inverted bowl, but something more on top of the action. I'm probably using the wrong terminology, but I thought "inverted" meant more on top of the action.

The inverted bowl is kind of like ‘on top of the action’ turned up to 11. There are several upper decks, stacked one on top of the other, which is very expensive to build without having support pillars that obstruct the view. I don't have a link handy, but they've built life-size mockups of inverted bowl seating, and with each level being steeper than the one below it, I am told the top level is not for the faint-hearted.

The other thing about the inverted bowl is that it puts a lot of structural weight on a small ground area. The Wikipedia article on the Calgary event centre says that the inverted bowl might not even be possible on the Victoria Park site because the ground isn't suitable. I don't know if that's correct, as Wikipedia often needs to be taken with a big helping of salt.

I'd be very happy with something like Little Caesars, actually. I would probably be happier with that than with an attempt to do something bold and original, because CSEC does not have a good track record when it tries to be original.

[Parallex]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I agree, the exterior of the old design was ugly. To me, it looked like the kind of exterior they slap on a parkade so you can't see that it's full of parked cars. But that's the easiest part of the whole project to remedy (and, unfortunately, the easiest to skimp on if they need to cut costs).

Better not. That it had a street facing activation aspect to it was the only part of it that I actually liked (didn't really like how and how little they were doing it but I was glad they at least had it).

[jayswin]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

I'd be very happy with something like Little Caesars, actually. I would probably be happier with that than with an attempt to do something bold and original, because CSEC does not have a good track record when it tries to be original.

Nope, they suck badly. Best we can hope for is a value engineered, boring cookie cutter rink with way pricier seats/food/beverage. I guess faster bathroom trips for those in the lower bowl.

[dissentowner]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The inverted bowl is kind of like ‘on top of the action’ turned up to 11. There are several upper decks, stacked one on top of the other, which is very expensive to build without having support pillars that obstruct the view. I don't have a link handy, but they've built life-size mockups of inverted bowl seating, and with each level being steeper than the one below it, I am told the top level is not for the faint-hearted.

The other thing about the inverted bowl is that it puts a lot of structural weight on a small ground area. The Wikipedia article on the Calgary event centre says that the inverted bowl might not even be possible on the Victoria Park site because the ground isn't suitable. I don't know if that's correct, as Wikipedia often needs to be taken with a big helping of salt.

I'd be very happy with something like Little Caesars, actually. I would probably be happier with that than with an attempt to do something bold and original, because CSEC does not have a good track record when it tries to be original.

LC is a fantastic arena, that would be a great rink to copy.

[getbak]

I believe the layout of the seating bowl will be nearly identical to Little Caesars, and also very similar to Rogers Place. That's not surprising since all 3 buildings are designed by HOK.

Spoilers for big images...

Spoiler!

When comparing the new development permit application to the 2021 design, the biggest difference is the new Event Level will be about 4.5m lower, which likely means the full lower bowl will be below street level. You will enter the building onto the main concourse and you will be at the top of the lower bowl.

In the 2021 design, you would have been about 2/3 of the way up the lower bowl on the concourse. When you entered the lower bowl from the concourse, there would have been about 15 rows in front of you to the ice and another 10 rows behind, with a Club level mezzanine at the top of the bowl.

In the new design (based on the excavation plan), you will likely be at the top of the bowl and there will be a club section one level down. Both Detroit and Edmonton have this same layout.

I suspect everything above the lower bowl level will be the same as the 2021 design (which is very similar to Little Caesars). The 2021 design had a "balcony" level above the upper bowl that would have likely been similar to the Gondola seats in Detroit (overhanging the upper bowl like a press box).