[Signing] Canadiens sign Carey Price to 8 Year, $10.5m Contract Extension

[Locke]

Originally Posted by CaptainCrunch

People were thinking that a guy like Price should top out at 9 million bucks a year. This is a reasonable deal for him. Frankly he should have been pushing for 12, I mean the rest of that team is hot garbage.

This is the crux of the issue as I see it.

Theres the 'League' Market and the 'Team' Market.

If you're the team MVP and they're up the creek without a paddle without you then you get a premium on the 'League' market rate.

[Enoch Root]

He definitely deserves it IMO - he is a game changer every night.

But if I am building a team, I would rather have a very good goalie at $5M than the best goalie at $10M (I am not talking about Smith here, just hypothetical)

[EldrickOnIce]

The biggest problem, from any perspective, is Bergevin is an idiot.
I think he would have trouble building a winner with Price at 2.5, nevermind 10.5.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by Enoch Root

He definitely deserves it IMO - he is a game changer every night.

But if I am building a team, I would rather have a very good goalie at $5M than the best goalie at $10M (I am not talking about Smith here, just hypothetical)

YES. This is exactly what I have been getting at in this thread. I think it is becoming apparent that having a player who is so much better at his position than all of his peers could prove to be an obstacle to team-building in the long run.

[Fire]

I'm thinking the NHL will asking for a cap on the signing bonuses during the next CBA battle. Shouldn't allow more than 10 or 20% of the yearly contract be a signing bonus. Gives the richer teams an unfair advantage.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

YES. This is exactly what I have been getting at in this thread. I think it is becoming apparent that having a player who is so much better at his position than all of his peers could prove to be an obstacle to team-building in the long run.

I actually think for the most part, for most positions, it's the opposite. It's the "sort of pretty good" players who cost 5-7 million that end up sinking you. You get much more value from Patrick Kane at 10.5 or Ovy at 9.5 than you do from Backes at 6 or Marleau at 6.25 or Eriksson at 6 or Lucic at 6 or (as the Stars will soon discover) Hanzal at 4.75. Of course you still have to take what you can get because there aren't enough Ovechkins for everyone.

To come around to your point, though, I do think it's different for the goalie market simply because it's such a crapshoot as to who will perform well year to year. Sure, we can count on Price to be a top flite goalie next year, and you could say the same about Lundqvist for 6 or 7 years and Luongo for about ten or twelve and... that's it. There are hardly any goalies who fit the bill.

On the one hand you could say "that's why it's worth paying Price that much", but again, it's eight years. Maybe you know when you have a player that's world class, but you can't know when he'll stop being that guy. He might be that guy for four years out of eight, and then what? Even really good goalies like Rinne and Bobrovsky have been up and down throughout the years, and outside of a couple of playoff runs, Quick has been more cold than hot. Which is why it makes more sense to me to aim for league average goaltending for a reasonable price, but most importantly, for a short term so you're not tied down to anyone.

Can't really fault the signing though, in the circumstances. This is basically McDavid 2.0. The GM simply cannot allow the player to leave, and has to take whatever deal he can get.

[RockOnRoberts]

This just really makes me miss the days of having Kipper in net. We were truly blessed with him in net.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

I actually think for the most part, for most positions, it's the opposite. It's the "sort of pretty good" players who cost 5-7 million that end up sinking you. You get much more value from Patrick Kane at 10.5 or Ovy at 9.5 than you do from Backes at 6 or Marleau at 6.25 or Eriksson at 6 or Lucic at 6 or (as the Stars will soon discover) Hanzal at 4.75. Of course you still have to take what you can get because there aren't enough Ovechkins for everyone...

Clearly, I am not talking about "sort of good players." I am talking about great players who are not quite the very best players at their positions. I am talking about Kane and Toews who were not quite as good as Crosby, enough so to ensure that they would not be the highest paid players on their second contracts. I am talking similarly about Anze Kopitar and to a lesser extent of Drew Doughty who became one of the highest paid defensemen in his second contract, but was still not one of the highest paid players in the NHL.

It remains to be seen because the Penguins have won two championships on the benefit they have drawn from having the two beast centres in the world on deals that are now outlawed by the current CBA. But I would warrant that in the near future teams with greater balance in caplets distributed among a higher number of positions will prove to be more successful than teams with top-heavy contracts dedicated to only a few players.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

But I would warrant that in the near future teams with greater balance in caplets distributed among a higher number of positions will prove to be more successful than teams with top-heavy contracts dedicated to only a few players.

Well, we'll see I guess, but I definitely disagree with that philosophy - I think spending a lot on a tight core of truly top-end talent, surrounded by lower-end players and young guys on ELCs, is probably the best ticket to success. Essentially what Chicago's done for the past couple of seasons. And with the caveat again that there isn't enough of that top-end talent to go around so not everyone will have the option.

[Textcritic]

Originally Posted by CorsiHockeyLeague

Well, we'll see I guess, but I definitely disagree with that philosophy - I think spending a lot on a tight core of truly top-end talent, surrounded by lower-end players and young guys on ELCs, is probably the best ticket to success. Essentially what Chicago's done for the past couple of seasons. And with the caveat again that there isn't enough of that top-end talent to go around so not everyone will have the option.

Which has NOT worked. Chicago has not won a single playoff round since Toews's and Kane's extensions kicked in two years ago. They were successful precisely based on what I said in my last post: Their second contracts were not the highest in the NHL because they were not the very best players in the League. As you said, there are only a few Ovechkins and Crosbys to go around, but that model has worked ONLY in Pittsburgh because of how the old CBA accommodated Crosby's and Malkin's second contracts. I don't see how it can continue to work into the future.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Well, if you judge success solely by playoff round wins, then we have very different metrics. Chicago's been a very, very good team since then and has managed to stay good despite talent bleed that accompanies being good even for a short period in a cap league. If you're depending on RFA deals to allow you to be at the top of the pile, you're only going to be able to stay there for two or three years (and you'll be depending on world-beating draft success). Granted, they have to hit a wall sometime, and that Seabrook contract is going to take its toll eventually.

[Kipper_3434]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

IMO if Price keeps playing the way he does up until his late 30s early 40s, he'll be a top 3-5 goalie of all time.

I just can't agree with top 3-5. Maybe top 10, barely.

Sawchuck, Hasek, Roy, and Brodeur are the undisputed top 4.

So he'd be competing with the likes of Dryden, Fuhr, Parent, Hall, and Plante.

I would put him in the discussion with guys like Lundquist, Cujo, Belfour and Quick.

[MarkGio]

Originally Posted by Kipper_3434

I just can't agree with top 3-5. Maybe top 10, barely.

Sawchuck, Hasek, Roy, and Brodeur are the undisputed top 4.

So he'd be competing with the likes of Dryden, Fuhr, Parent, Hall, and Plante.

I would put him in the discussion with guys like Lundquist, Cujo, Belfour and Quick.

I don't really consider hockey before the 80s as legit. Sawchuk played when there was so few teams and expanded to all these crappy clubs. Sawchuk played before the red line and goalie mask, so it's hard to take it seriously.

Hasek hands down is GOAT based on his raw abilities. http://www.quanthockey.com/nhl/recor...l-goalies.html

Look at how many times Hasek is on that list. That's just insane.

[Philly06Cup]

Can someone give me some advanced stats showing how carey price is two tires above every other goalie?

His basic stats show he had 1.5 elite years, but before that his GAA was in the 2.50 range.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by Philly06Cup

Can someone give me some advanced stats showing how carey price is two tires above every other goalie?

His basic stats show he had 1.5 elite years, but before that his GAA was in the 2.50 range.

Sent from my ONEPLUS A5000 using Tapatalk

I cannot provide stats, but I can provide a picture of the Habs in the standings when they didn't have Price for nearly an entire season....they were a bottom 10 team. With him they are catapulted to nearly a lock for the playoffs every year with a good chance of winning their division.

Basically without Price the Habs might be as bad as New Jersey.

[calgaryblood]

Originally Posted by Cali Panthers Fan

I cannot provide stats, but I can provide a picture of the Habs in the standings when they didn't have Price for nearly an entire season....they were a bottom 10 team. With him they are catapulted to nearly a lock for the playoffs every year with a good chance of winning their division.

Basically without Price the Habs might be as bad as New Jersey.

Or even Philly!

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

That is nonsense. There are a number of players that would be in the conversation of "all time greats," even without a Stanley Cup on their resume. Ovechkin has been a ridiculously good player for the duration of his career which will end with him as one of the best goal-scorers of all time. Championships are important, but they are far from everything. In the end when comparing Carey Price to Chris Osgood or Alex Ovechkin to Dave Andrechuk the consensus will never change.

I guess it depends how you define "all-time greats", but there aren't many guys without cups in the top two tiers of the conversation (top tier being Gretz, Orr, Lemieux, Howe, Richard, and I'd probably add Crosby and Lidstrom; 2nd tier: Sakic, Yzerman, Messier, Esposito, Bossy, Bourque, Jagr, etc.)


Ovechkin
Dionne
Iginla
Thornton
Lindros
Bure
Hawerchuk
Gartner
Oates

Ovechkin is the only guy that is a lock to join that 2nd tier conversation w/o ring (I think Bourque would have been there without his ring, too, but it cemented it for him). Put a ring on the next 5 guys and they are there, but otherwise it's a fair debate. Not sure about the last 3 on my list ring or not.

It's not surprising that pretty much everyone but Dionne is a 90's or later player, considering the number of teams now in the league, so the conversation will probably start to evolve.


For goalies:
Roy/Brodeur/Hasek/Sawchuk/Plante - all of them have multiple cups. Hasek is the low man with two.

You're simply not cracking that list without a cup. Tier 2 vs. 3 is an interesting convo though. Where do Luongo, Kipper, Lundqvist, Joseph, and Price fit with guys like Fuhr, Dryden, Belfour, Hall, Bower, Broda? I think Quick and Thomas join the conversation, too, though probably not without rings.

[CorsiHockeyLeague]

Hasek would very easily be on that list without his time in Detroit. His legacy was cemented before he ever got there.

[RougeUnderoos]

Originally Posted by MarkGio

I don't really consider hockey before the 80s as legit. Sawchuk played when there was so few teams and expanded to all these crappy clubs. Sawchuk played before the red line and goalie mask, so it's hard to take it seriously.

Ha ha ha. Wow.

[habernac]

Originally Posted by RougeUnderoos

Ha ha ha. Wow.

Just show him the Life magazine pic of Terry's face covered in stitches and welts. WTF did that guy know about stopping a puck?