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Old 08-13-2017, 11:25 AM   #301
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On another note, is there one thing we can change as a board? It's something I've been guilty of a lot so I'm not taking any moral high ground here.

Can we be a lot more respectful and less arrogant towards our neighbours to the south and their country? It comes off poorly and they already have so much **** to deal with. You would think that as Albertans we could understand the frustration and alienation that goes with everyone ****ing on you for things that are mostly beyond your control.

I could go on how about how our governments aren't comparable or how they have a million complicated issues that we don't have to deal with, but all that's besides the point that we should aspire to be the great people that we're known for around the world, and the way many continually knock them and their people down is the opposite of who we claim to be.

America's a beautiful place with millions of amazing, kind, smart people. They're a world super power with 340 million people, and an oppressive, malicious government, of course things aren't going to run smoothly, but let's not continually call their whole country stupid.
Thank you for this.

Unfortunately, I'm not smart enough to let that stuff roll off me all the time! It really gets to me sometimes.
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:28 AM   #302
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He probably said this because he thought no one in their right mind would celebrate the traitorous losers.
It probably had a bit of a deeper meaning lol
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:36 AM   #303
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I think we're all in agreement that people rocking nazi paraphernalia and allegedly driving cars into counter protestors is pretty contemptible. But I think an interesting debate to be had is whether the statue of Robert E Lee should be replaced.

Although a Confederate general, Lee was a well respected military officer for basically all of his life. He graduated top of his class from the Army academy, served in the Mexican American war, and took a strong leadership position in a Virginia university after the Civil war. He joined to confederacy only after his home state of Virginia decided to secede. He is a central figure to the history of Virginia, so is it unreasonable to wipe out all physical trace of him at that state's flagship university?
Robert E Lee was a traitor.

History books are full of them. That's where he belongs.

I could be wrong, but I am guessing there are no statues of George Washington in the UK.
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:44 AM   #304
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"Car kills counter protestor" and not a peep from the guys who said Obama wouldn't call a spade a spade and mention Islamic terrorism by name.

That was a terrorist attack and nobody will call it that.
Patently false.

Almost everyone is calling it that. Just not the leader of the free world.
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Old 08-13-2017, 11:53 AM   #305
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Actually there is a statue of Washington in the U.K., right in the heart of London in Trafalgar Square
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:02 PM   #306
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Actually there is a statue of Washington in the U.K., right in the heart of London in Trafalgar Square
Of course there is.

I'll save myself here, a little anyway.

It's actually a pretty poor comparison on my part.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:06 PM   #307
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lol
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:15 PM   #308
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Your math skills need some work, .001% of 350million is 350K.
His Math skills need some work?
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:23 PM   #309
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So you're in favour of getting rid of all trace of Robert E Lee? Do you support the renaming of Washington and Lee University, the bulldozing of the ancestral Lee house you can visit at the Arlington cemetery? Where are you going to stop?

Also I really don't see how you can apply your logic of applying the morality of the times to Lee and not to the founding fathers, they all had the power to stamp out the civil war before it could fester, they wrote the phrase " all men are created equal " and did basically nothing to apply that to all men.
I am in favour of having a museum that houses artifacts from that time period. Lee's house at Arlington cemetery seems like a good one for that or something similar. One should never stamp out dark parts of history as people won't learn from those mistakes. However, boldly celebrating the awful things that happened in public spaces should not be allowed as it creates a focal point for hatred. It is the same reason why Osama Bin Laden's body was dumped in the middle of the ocean. No need for public iconography.

I am also not condoning what the founding fathers did. It was just as disgusting as what the south fought for in the civil war. There simply wasn't the same level of public support for equality at that time. They were more barbaric than their great grand children were.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:32 PM   #310
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Ok, this is not directed at anyone in particular, but...

This thread is getting very hard to moderate, because of all of the insults flying back and forth and the frankly strange generalizations and digressions that we are seeing. This is important stuff, but like the history of race in America in general, it's complicated, so please try to remember:

1. There are some things that reasonable people can disagree on;
2. A person can disagree with you without being a bad person;
3. It is best to avoid attributing the actions of a few to the traits of an entire nation, or ethnic, or socio-economic group (but it's also totally fair to connect movements like the alt-right to historical/sociological trends); and
4. Let's all try to be friends even when we don't always see eye to eye about stuff. Sometimes other people are wrong on the internet, but that doesn't mean you have to be a jerk to them when you point it out.

The events in the US yesterday are horrifying and shocking. They evoke strong reactions in us, and that is okay. But let's try to make this discussion an example of how political discourse can be better, and more productive than whatever was happening in Virginia yesterday. If we can do that, we all win--and we moderators can actually leave this thread open, as there is a lot of good discussion going on in and amongst some of the less productive stuff.

Can we try that?
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:40 PM   #311
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Originally Posted by DiracSpike View Post
So you're in favour of getting rid of all trace of Robert E Lee? Do you support the renaming of Washington and Lee University, the bulldozing of the ancestral Lee house you can visit at the Arlington cemetery? Where are you going to stop?

Also I really don't see how you can apply your logic of applying the morality of the times to Lee and not to the founding fathers, they all had the power to stamp out the civil war before it could fester, they wrote the phrase " all men are created equal " and did basically nothing to apply that to all men.
Here's 2 questions that will maybe lead you to rethink your position.

1. When was the Robert E Lee statue (and most Confederate monuments in the US) erected?
2. Why was it erected?


The answer to 1 is not after the war. There were two major periods the vast majority of these monuments were erected. The Klan resurgence in the years near the end of the first world war coincided with a huge surge in Confederate monuments including the one in question. It was a time of great racial tension. The second time there was a large surge in these monuments being erected was in the sixties.

2. They were not monuments to these men, but rather a way to remind people of the fight against equality of negros. It was openly stated at the time. The idea that these were too celebrate history is absurd.


Edit: to more accurately attribute my argument
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:46 PM   #312
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If the two sides were fighting and guy jumps in his car to mow them down, does that really qualify as a terrorist attack? If he just drove into a random group and wasn't involved in any other way maybe? Is there any information relating to this?
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:54 PM   #313
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If the two sides were fighting and guy jumps in his car to mow them down, does that really qualify as a terrorist attack? If he just drove into a random group and wasn't involved in any other way maybe? Is there any information relating to this?
He was part of the alt right movement, and purposely went down to the protest and attempted to kill lots of people because of what they were standing up for. That's the best info we have so far, which is of course all alleged at this point.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:55 PM   #314
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Originally Posted by Street Pharmacist View Post
Here's 2 questions that will maybe lead you to rethink your position.

1. When was the Robert E Lee statue (and most Confederate monuments in the US) erected?
2. Why was it erected?


The answer to 1 is not after the war. There were two major periods the vast majority of these monuments were erected. The Klan resurgence in the years near the end of the second world war coincided with a huge surge in Confederate monuments including the one in question. It was a time of great racial tension. The second time there was a large surge in these monuments being erected was in the sixties.

2. They were not monuments to these men, but rather a way to remind people of the fight against equality of negros. It was openly stated at the time. The idea that these were too celebrate history is absurd.
To be fair, I think he was just pointing out that I was wrong about Washington and the UK. I don't think he was trying to make a parallel and use that monument to justify CSA monuments. My fault completely.
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:57 PM   #315
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To be fair, I think he was just pointing out that I was wrong about Washington and the UK. I don't think he was trying to make a parallel and use that monument to justify CSA monuments. My fault completely.
Earlier in the thread he/she was more pointing out that you maybe shouldn't erase history you don't agree with.

While I'm sympathetic to that point, I think he missed what the history of these statues are
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Old 08-13-2017, 12:59 PM   #316
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Earlier in the thread he/she was more pointing out that you maybe shouldn't erase history you don't agree with.

While I'm sympathetic to that point, I think he missed what the history of these statues are
I also thought it was a pretty clear "funny you mention that as your example" moment. I laughed, you're always serious and looking to play middle man, so you're probably in discussion battle mode and missed it.
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:12 PM   #317
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Originally Posted by Weitz View Post
If the two sides were fighting and guy jumps in his car to mow them down, does that really qualify as a terrorist attack? If he just drove into a random group and wasn't involved in any other way maybe? Is there any information relating to this?
The question goes back further: what was he coming to Charlottesville for? To terrorize the community and he liked those trying to shout him down. That's terrorism imo
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:14 PM   #318
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I think the one thing these white supremacists have succeeded in doing, is to remove any doubt that these statues are a symbol of hate and racism.
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:28 PM   #319
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Months ago:

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/wo...-a7715101.html

Donald Trump freezes funding to groups fighting right-wing terror and white supremacism

Grants had been approved by former President Barack Obama to target far-right hate groups and Islamist radicals at community level
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Old 08-13-2017, 01:55 PM   #320
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I also thought it was a pretty clear "funny you mention that as your example" moment. I laughed, you're always serious and looking to play middle man, so you're probably in discussion battle mode and missed it.
He's not serious all the time, sometimes he's sleeping.
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