[News] New Arena - Plan B - Victoria Park

[Macindoc]

Originally Posted by wired

I don't live in Calgary any more, so I don't really care about a new arena.
But I am opposed to billionaires getting a free arena from any type of government.
Edmonton got hosed big time.
I am paying for Rogers Place, and I f$#@ing hate the soilers.

Nobody is advocating a team getting a "free arena". Regardless of the decision made by the Calgary Sports and Entertainment group and city council, if a new arena is built, it will likely be owned by the city, and the sports conglomerate will likely pay part of the price of its construction, in exchange for some control over services and revenues from its use.

The fieldhouse and the clean up of the West Village site that were part of the Calgary Next proposal will be necessary expenses for the city and province, regardless of what happens with any future arena. Calgary is the only city in Canada with a population over 200,000 that does not have a fieldhouse. Even Lethbridge and Kamloops have one. And the willful ignorance of the harmful effects of not remediating a toxic waste site right on the banks of the Bow River is inexcusable.

[Scary Eloranta]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Nobody is advocating a team getting a "free arena". Regardless of the decision made by the Calgary Sports and Entertainment group and city council, if a new arena is built, it will likely be owned by the city, and the sports conglomerate will likely pay part of the price of its construction, in exchange for some control over services and revenues from its use.

The fieldhouse and the clean up of the West Village site that were part of the Calgary Next proposal will be necessary expenses for the city and province, regardless of what happens with any future arena. Calgary is the only city in Canada with a population over 200,000 that does not have a fieldhouse. Even Lethbridge and Kamloops have one. And the willful ignorance of the harmful effects of not remediating a toxic waste site right on the banks of the Bow River is inexcusable.

The field house situation here is pathetic but the contamination rarely if ever gets talked about! Is it blown out of proportion or is it as bad as it sounds and the city just doesn't care?

[getbak]

According to the report from last year, as long as nothing is done to disturb the creosote, it's basically safe in its current state. The containment measures that were undertaken in the 1990s have done what they were supposed to do.

Obviously, once they decide to build something on that land, it will need to be cleaned up somehow.


That's the problem. It costs nothing to do nothing and it isn't getting any worse, so there's no urgency to do something.


Here's the report: http://agendaminutes.calgary.ca/sire...&fileid=427928

[photon]

Didn't see this mentioned.

For his part, Mayor Nenshi doesn’t sound like he has any sense of urgency. Even the seemingly invincible mayor must answer to the people.

“We did a big renovation to the Saddledome in 2013. I don’t think anybody is pulling out their hair completely on timing here.”

http://www.calgarysun.com/2017/04/24...t-in-principle

Just rhetoric? I'm sure he knows that remediation from a flood isn't a renovation.

[djsFlames]

Get your head out of your butt, Nenshi.

Time is most certainly of the essence. And flood repairs do not count as a 'renovation'.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Macindoc

Calgary is the only city in Canada with a population over 200,000 that does not have a fieldhouse. Even Lethbridge and Kamloops have one.

Let's compare apples to apples here. Just because Calgary doesn't have something specifically called a "fieldhouse" doesn't mean we don't have facilities that blow those other cities out of the water.


Here are the other facilities listed on the Fieldhouse Society's website (http://www.calgaryfieldhouse.ca/mission):

• Kamloops: http://www.tournamentcapital.com/fieldhouse.htm
• Lethbridge: http://www.uleth.ca/sportrec/content...sport-wellness
• Thunder Bay: http://www.confederationcollege.ca/f...tness-facility and http://thunderwolves.ca/facilities/
• Regina: http://www.regina.ca/residents/recre...ies/sportplex/
• Saskatoon: https://www.saskatoon.ca/parks-recre...on-field-house
• Edmonton: https://www.ualberta.ca/physical-edu...ion-butterdome, https://www.edmonton.ca/activities_p...se-courts.aspx and https://www.edmonton.ca/activities_p...monwealth.aspx

None of those facilities have anything close to what we're talking about for the field house in Calgary. Most of them don't even have all the amenities you can find at the Repsol/Talisman/Lindsay Park Centre.

None of them have a full 400m running track. Of those, only the new Commonwealth Rec Centre in Edmonton and the Hangar at Lakehead University in Thunder Bay have an indoor turf field. The one in Thunder Bay appears to have a full-sized soccer field, but it also appears to literally be a hangar, with no additional amenities.

I can't find any information about the size of the field in Edmonton, but based on the size of the building, it can't be a full-sized field. Looking at this photo, it appears to be 45 yards plus the end zone: http://www.clarkbuilders.com/wp-cont...0066_large.jpg



Yes, Calgary will benefit from the field house, but this whole idea that we're lagging behind cities like Lethbridge or Kamloops because we didn't slap the "field house" name on one of our rec centres is pretty ridiculous.

[Roughneck]

Originally Posted by photon

Didn't see this mentioned.

For his part, Mayor Nenshi doesn’t sound like he has any sense of urgency. Even the seemingly invincible mayor must answer to the people.

“We did a big renovation to the Saddledome in 2013. I don’t think anybody is pulling out their hair completely on timing here.”

http://www.calgarysun.com/2017/04/24...t-in-principle

Just rhetoric? I'm sure he knows that remediation from a flood isn't a renovation.

Political posturing. The Flames have the need for the arena, not the city, so if they want the accelerated timeline and the costs associated with it they can pony up on their end so it doesn't negatively affect the city's budget plans.

Or so I figure is the message between the lines.

[getbak]

Originally Posted by Roughneck

Political posturing. The Flames have the need for the arena, not the city, so if they want the accelerated timeline and the costs associated with it they can pony up on their end so it doesn't negatively affect the city's budget plans.

Or so I figure is the message between the lines.

That's how I took it. Similar to King's comment about the city needing to convince the Flames that they're serious about making the Entertainment District viable.

Both sides want this to happen, but neither side wants to look too anxious to get it done.

[PaperBagger'14]

Okotoks has their own field house, 3 indoor soccer arenas, a general purpose field, running track around the perimeter, a gym (maybe, if it's been completed) and a few other odds and ends.

[oldschoolcalgary]

Originally Posted by getbak

That's how I took it. Similar to King's comment about the city needing to convince the Flames that they're serious about making the Entertainment District viable.

Both sides want this to happen, but neither side wants to look too anxious to get it done.

reminds me a little of the Johnny contract negotiations...

a lot of talk, and in the end a deal was worked out that was fair. Both side probably felt they gave up a little too much, which is generally a good rule of thumb to suggest that it was a fair deal for both sides.

[OldDutch]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Get your head out of your butt, Nenshi.

Time is most certainly of the essence. And flood repairs do not count as a 'renovation'.

Who has their head up their butt? The mayor working to hold the Flames accountable or the guy who took years to produce a napkin drawing?

I love how I walk into a thread that bashes Nenshi for raising taxes and free spending and another that bashes him for protecting tax dollars.

Or is the vision for the city a Soviet style artless concrete wasteland with all roads leading to the Flames mecca? Everyone is welcome to move up North if you like the local hockey team calling the shots. Fancy arenas and bridges shaped as oil derricks...Paradise

[PepsiFree]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Get your head out of your butt, Nenshi.

Time is most certainly of the essence. And flood repairs do not count as a 'renovation'.

Why?
And would it be if King hadn't completely fumbled all of the planning to-date?
And is it City Council's job to rush because of King's ineptitude?

We're in no rush at all.

[Muta]

It's unfortunate that the creosote issue isn't being dealt with, CalgaryNEXT or not. The longer we wait, the costlier it likely gets to clean up, and the longer badly needed development is delayed in that area. So much wasted potential there right now.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Muta

It's unfortunate that the creosote issue isn't being dealt with, CalgaryNEXT or not. The longer we wait, the costlier it likely gets to clean up, and the longer badly needed development is delayed in that area. So much wasted potential there right now.

Why does it get costlier to clean up?

What demand is driving the development when you have east village and the stampede area currently being developed.

I see it as an untapped future resource that can be exploited by the city when the market demands the space. A CRL is then used to fund the clean up and the infrastructure and the city comes out way ahead of where it would be then if the stadium and arena take up half of the prime real estate along the river.

It's 20 years down the road but using that location on a giant concrete box is a waste.

[Ducay]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Get your head out of your butt, Nenshi.

Time is most certainly of the essence. And flood repairs do not count as a 'renovation'.

Time is of the essence? Let's say Flames get no new arena in the next, hmmm, 10 (or even 15 for that matter) years. What about the Flames suddenly become non-viable?

The Dome is old and ugly but certain still gets the job done. What does adding a few boxes and making it shiny and pretty do to improve the community over the existing arena a block away?

This isn't a case where we're going from the Joe Louis (basically the Corral for those who never went) which effectively lacked luxury suites as we know them; the Dome's economics for Flames games aren't going to change all that much beyond being able to mentally sell higher prices to people and more boxes.

[Snuffleupagus]

Originally Posted by Bunk

Here's the size breakdown from the presentation. Plenty of room.

Would there be enough room for the CalgaryNEXT project at this site if the dome was gone, a big field house/football stadium on the grounds would be great for stampede and of course year round for regular use/events.

[Muta]

Originally Posted by GGG

Why does it get costlier to clean up?

What demand is driving the development when you have east village and the stampede area currently being developed.

I see it as an untapped future resource that can be exploited by the city when the market demands the space. A CRL is then used to fund the clean up and the infrastructure and the city comes out way ahead of where it would be then if the stadium and arena take up half of the prime real estate along the river.

It's 20 years down the road but using that location on a giant concrete box is a waste.

It gets costlier because labour prices inevitably go up, and as the city grows in population, density and infrastructure around that area, leaving that area untouched makes it more challenging to shut it down for cleanup. Not impossible, just more challenging. As an example, when the airport tunnel was built, everyone bitched at the cost of it, but doing it years later (ie. now) would have brought the cost up by many millions. I was involved with that project during its construction. Now it's a critical piece of infrastructure that is paid for and serving Calgary and will only grow in importance as it is eventually connected to the ring road.

And, this has nothing to do with demand right now. But, it does have something to do with preparing for that demand in the future. Right now, the city knows it has an opportunity to capitalize on a potential tax base by densifying the West Village with residential and commercial development. That's why there's a development plan for that area. This discussion is much bigger than an arena, which you keep going back to. There will a West Village development at some point.

Whether you like it or not, that area will be developed, arena or not, and that creosote issue will need to be addressed. It's not a question of if, but when.

[powderjunkie]

Let's not parse words too hard from a media scrum - nobody ever articulates their thoughts perfectly in that situation. A prepared statement is more fair game for scrutiny IMO.

Time is not of the essence. I think the flood mention might have been more about "we already sunk a bunch of money into the building to help the team and make sure it was ready for the season...we don't need to rush to give away more taxpayer money".

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by djsFlames

Get your head out of your butt, Nenshi.

Time is most certainly of the essence. And flood repairs do not count as a 'renovation'.

Time is certainly not of the essence for anyone but the owners and the wealthy who can afford the fancier experience that will come with a new arena. Please attempt to logically dispute that.

I'll give you a head start. It's probably a touch easier to attract free agents and sign players with a sweet arena facility. That benefits us all as fans.

Try to go further than that regarding why time is of the essence.

[Frequitude]

Originally Posted by Snuffleupagus

Would there be enough room for the CalgaryNEXT project at this site if the dome was gone, a big field house/football stadium on the grounds would be great for stampede and of course year round for regular use/events.

A smarter idea IMO from a land use perspective would be to replace the grandstand with a stadium that 11 days a year has the chucks run around/through it and a rodeo/grandstand show in it. Build it one side at a time to reduce Stampede interruptions (i.e. the side inside the track first, then demo the grandstand and build the side second).

There would certainly be some challenges turning it into an intimate rodeo/chuckwagon/grandstand venue 11 days a year, but you've gotta think there's a way for that to be resolved. First thing that comes to mind is mass seating on one side ala the current grandstand and roll-in fancy suite seating ala the current infield.