What about the entire vocal parts? Lyrics? The chorus and bridge at the end? None of that could have said to have been borrowed.
There is a progression of 5 chords that Stairway follows in it's intro/verses, except the Stairway version has a couple augmented ones whereas spirit doesn't, and it diverges from there. That progression has been used many times elsewhere as it's quite simple. The way the chords are picked are what make them sound similar, but regardless, 90% of Stairway is otherwise original content.
While perhaps the intro was could have been inspired by it, the two works don't mirror each other enough for Wolfe to be claiming that he deserves credit. Some iteration of that intro I guarantee has been used in classical songs probably hundreds of years prior. So that's baloney.
The "hook" is a pretty big part of a song. Zeppelin loves to rip off cool sounding hooks and then build around them. That is the foundation for most of the lawsuits against them. For Stairway to Heavean the hook is definitely the intro.
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A little part of me dies every time I hear another song that LZ stole. Jimmy page will still remain my favourite guitarist of all time, imo, his body of work eclipses that of any other guitarist (Hendrix was definitely more talented, but Hendrix made music for 2.5 years, Page made it for 15 years).
My Mt Rushmore of rock guitar is Chuck Berry, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page and Eddie Van Halen.
I love all those guys, especially Chuck Berry but there's so much more!
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A little part of me dies every time I hear another song that LZ stole. Jimmy page will still remain my favourite guitarist of all time, imo, his body of work eclipses that of any other guitarist (Hendrix was definitely more talented, but Hendrix made music for 2.5 years, Page made it for 15 years).
My Mt Rushmore of rock guitar is Chuck Berry, Jimi Hendrix, Jimmy Page and Eddie Van Halen.
I would replace Van Halen with Clapton. Van Halen is awesome, but....Clapton.
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When you analyze the Stairway chords you see that Jimmy Page used both natural minor and the dorian mode. The D is a chord substitution borrowed from the relative A major scale. This gives the song it's harmonic lift.
INTRO
Am G#aug | C/G D/F# | Fmaj7 | Am/B Am
Am Bdim C Dm Em F G
i IIdim bIII iv v bVI bVII
Dm > D (dorian)
The opening chords are Am, G#aug, C/G, D/F#, Fmaj7
But every song has its own fingerprint - Shazam can identify songs simply from the sequence of rising and falling notes in a song.
It is true there are only so many notes in a scale - but are there limitless combinations when you alter tempos, rhythms, harmony, dynamics, keys, pitch and timbre?
Mathematically, yes. When it's up for personal interpretation? No.
There was a great classical composer (name escapes me) who said we will at some point run out of music. He didn't foresee the drum kit, amplified instruments, or modern recording tech however.
The point I was making about personal style though is this. You could take a million drummers and ask them all to hit nothing but a snare. If one of those drummers is Alex VanHalen I will be able to pick him out. So you can play the same thing as someone else, but the individual interpretation aspect changes everything. Is it still the same part or peice? Sure but it sounds completely different.
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Quote:
Originally Posted by yamer
Even though he says he only wanted steak and potatoes, he was aware of all the rapes.
I find myself constantly torn on how to view music copyright. Music is such a living organism and similarities and inspiration are in so many things and so many places. Part of me wants music to be "open source" as it were but there is always the problem of money when that comes into play.
Another genre where "ripping off" is rampant is hip hop. Sampling is one of the foundations of the genre and you almost never see any of the original samples credited, in fact it's one of the features of sampling that people try to hide the provenance of the original samples to create the mystique and to prevent other artists from using the material.
You could take a million drummers and ask them all to hit nothing but a snare. If one of those drummers is Alex VanHalen I will be able to pick him out.
I am not doubting what you say is true, but what about his particular snare skills would tip you off?
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Captain James P. DeCOSTE, CD, 18 Sep 1993
The point I was making about personal style though is this. You could take a million drummers and ask them all to hit nothing but a snare. If one of those drummers is Alex VanHalen I will be able to pick him out. So you can play the same thing as someone else, but the individual interpretation aspect changes everything. Is it still the same part or peice? Sure but it sounds completely different.
I kind of have to disagree. The same way you couldn't have Page, Clapton and Hendrix all hit the same note over and over with no effects and be able to determine which is which, but if you gave them all the same full song to play, you would certainly hear a difference and be able to pick out who was who.
I don't think you could a hear a difference of just smacking a snare, but of course letting them run wild on a kit, you'd hear a difference between Moon, Van Halen, Baker, Bonham, etc.., even if they were playing the same song. Just the nature of their fills will tell you.
Of all the songs to say are a ripoff this one's a bit of a stretch imo. They aren't really that similar considering how blatantly so many other songs are ripped off, even if they are similar they aren't similar enough. The lead melody line is completely different, subtle chord similarity and tone isn't enough imo. The Taurus song uses a major scale as well and goes for a baroque classical influence, there are so many other songs that are blatant ripoffs this lawsuit will be dropped.
Now here are some ripoffs.
Original
Ripoff
Original
Ripoff
Floyd almost sued, but then they had too much of their own BS to deal with.
A little part of me dies every time I hear another song that LZ stole. Jimmy page will still remain my favourite guitarist of all time, imo, his body of work eclipses that of any other guitarist (Hendrix was definitely more talented, but Hendrix made music for 2.5 years, Page made it for 15 years).
And putting aside his musicianship, he's one of the great producers/arrangers in rock history. Which is what makes his theft of tunes so sad. Page is remarkably unscrupulous, even by the standards of a remarkably unscrupulous industry.
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Originally Posted by fotze
If this day gets you riled up, you obviously aren't numb to the disappointment yet to be a real fan.
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I am not doubting what you say is true, but what about his particular snare skills would tip you off?
It's not his skills so much as his sound (although his skills are indentifiable, in particular he rarely uses his crashes on the 1st count of a new bar) but it's part tuning, part technique, and part production.
He employs rim shots heavily, and with how he tunes a snare open with a loose snare strainer, you hear heavy, heavy amounts of air moving and his overall snare sound is more the timbre of the drum shell than the snares itself. Next time you hear a Van Halen tune listen and hopefully how I described it makes sense. Less "tisssss" more "crack". It's his fingerprint and it's extremely identifiable.
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Originally Posted by yamer
Even though he says he only wanted steak and potatoes, he was aware of all the rapes.
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I kind of have to disagree. The same way you couldn't have Page, Clapton and Hendrix all hit the same note over and over with no effects and be able to determine which is which, but if you gave them all the same full song to play, you would certainly hear a difference and be able to pick out who was who.
I don't think you could a hear a difference of just smacking a snare, but of course letting them run wild on a kit, you'd hear a difference between Moon, Van Halen, Baker, Bonham, etc.., even if they were playing the same song. Just the nature of their fills will tell you.
Sure, I should have expanded on that further.
If you take a snare drum, set up exactly the same for a bunch of drummers, gave them all the same sized stick, and said "one single stroke in the center of the batter at mp" then yes, they all should sound the same. Then if you said ok, now tune the snare the way you want and play a single note like it was the backbeat with the stick of your choice then absolutely you will hear a difference, their personality. Same thing applies like you say, a guitar with no effects and a single note out of the same gear should sound the same across the board. But like I said earlier, due to electronics, and modern recording techniques you can carve out your own sound. Hell, even the most casual music goer should be able to pick out Lars Ulrich's terrible snare sound on St. Anger. Some guys will keep that sound that entire careers.
The drummers you brought up bring up another interesting aspect. Guys like Moon played on top of the beat all the time. Alex VH is basically in the middle of the pocket and Bonham always sat a little behind the pocket, which is what made his groove feel so thick. And then there are guys like Stewart Copeland, Taylor Hawkins who play so far on top of the beat they push the tempo. You could ask all of those guys to lay down two and four, no fills, at the same tempo and again you will be able to differentiate between all of them. Buddy Rich used to say he knew where a guy fell in the pocket just by how they walked into their first rehearsal.
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Originally Posted by yamer
Even though he says he only wanted steak and potatoes, he was aware of all the rapes.
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