Class action lawsuit filed against CHL over wages

[firecenter]

Originally Posted by Jay Random

The real question here should be: Is the CHL a professonal league or not? If it's a professional league, it should be paying its players. If not, it shouldn't. It seems to me that this lawsuit is an attempt to force the CHL, which has always been regarded as an amateur league (except by the NCAA with its draconic definition of 'professional'), to turn itself into a pro league and conduct its business accordingly. If that's what you all want to see, fine. I don't think either the CHL, its players, or hockey as a whole will benefit from having kids turn pro for minimum wage at age 16.

Then, as someone mentioned upthread, if the CHL is a pro league, what about Junior A? What about leagues further down the pecking order? At what level of youth hockey are the players actually allowed to be amateur, or is it to be all pros all the way down?

It's a very big can of worms that we're opening here.

Good points. Why stop at hockey?? There would essentially be no teams left to pay players anyway, so what are we achieving. Amateur sports have never driven the kind of revenue to pay athletes. I know first hand the costs of elite minor hockey, with equipment, travel, food,meet... Throw in scholarships, expenses would be massive.

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by firecenter

Good points. Why stop at hockey??

Agreed. How about teenaged Olympian figure skaters and gymnasts?

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by Delgar

Agreed. How about teenaged Olympian figure skaters and gymnasts?

Are they run by for-profit businesses?

[Jay Random]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Are they run by for-profit businesses?

The Olympics are a massive business. They don't technically run a profit, because they don't get most of their revenue from the gate or even from broadcast revenues, but by sucking cash out of stupid politicians who are desperate to buy prestige with somebody else's money. How many billions were spent on Sochi? That ended up in somebody's pocket, I can assure you. But it wasn't the athletes'.

So should Olympic athletes be paid minimum wage for the time they spend training?

If so, why? Is there a principle somewhere that people in general should be paid for learning skills? Should university students be paid wages for going to class?

You seem to be getting yourself into a position that will require some mighty strange arguments to defend.

[firecenter]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

Are they run by for-profit businesses?

They don't compete in a league, so it's not apples to apples. Olympians do raise sponsorships to cover costs, and keep the rest if anything left over. The profit thing is overstated in the chl, more teams lose than make. It shouldn't be a crime either, for someone to take on the risk of owning a team, to be able to make 100k.

[speede5]

I think they definately need to make some changes but minimum wage is a stretch. These kids want a shot at the NHL and this is still the most direct route. That's the chance they take and they forego salary, NCAA scholarships, etc.

The WHL scholarship program needs an overhaul, too many hoops and loopholes. But they still get bursaries from colleges and universities so it's not all bad.

As far as making them pay costs? What employer makes their employees pay for equipment? Good luck with that. NHL players make sick money and don't pay for squat. They already get per diems too, so really all that needs to be adjusted is their allowance.

Anyway I hope the players get a bit better deal without hurting the league. There's a lot wrong with JR. hockey but it's still a great asset.

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Delgar

And to be fair I should add that my reply is as much a drive-by post as yours was. I'm willing to debate this with you over the next while in a fair manner if you are.

Considering how many posts I have made in this very thread, as well as on last year's group of scammers who tried the same, if you think my post was a drive by, then I have to question whether you are even capable of holding a debate.

As firecenter notes, these proposals are coming from the outside. From fraudsters like Glen Gumbley to Unifor and their lawyers trying to make money. Where you don't see this being driven from is the players, their agents or their families.

While the merits of the case may be in question, I have no doubt about the motivations.

[firecenter]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Considering how many posts I have made in this very thread, as well as on last year's group of scammers who tried the same, if you think my post was a drive by, then I have to question whether you are even capable of holding a debate.

As firecenter notes, these proposals are coming from the outside. From fraudsters like Glen Gumbley to Unifor and their lawyers trying to make money. Where you don't see this being driven from is the players, their agents or their families.

While the merits of the case may be in question, I have no doubt about the motivations.

I think we all agree there could be improvements, like anything in life. But IMO, they have it pretty well, and tons of players have/would vouch for it, in a system far from lucrative for the owners. Is it worth eliminating junior hockey altogether?

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

Considering how many posts I have made in this very thread, as well as on last year's group of scammers who tried the same, if you think my post was a drive by, then I have to question whether you are even capable of holding a debate.

I responded to what I read and I have no idea what you posted last year. If engaging in a debate with you requires someone to know your entire posting history (which is probably amongst the highest in CP history) I guess you're immune from debate?

I'd even concede that there are those trying to make money off this. Don't the pharmaceutical companies make gobs of money off people trying to not die? Is that contrary to your value system?

I think your response says enough though. I'm not capable of debate because I don't know your posting history. Stupid.

[Resolute 14]

You don't need to know my entire posting history, but if you are going to claim to be interested in a debate, read the bloody thread you are commenting in. Also, feel free to stop ignoring the key point firecenter and I are making.

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by Resolute 14

You don't need to know my entire posting history, but if you are going to claim to be interested in a debate, read the bloody thread you are commenting in. Also, feel free to stop ignoring the key point firecenter and I are making.

So you've backed off your posts from last year, that's a start.

I have read this thread. You haven't made even one post to actually support your argument, you simply go on that attack and pretend you know what you say is true. I know a bit about your posting history, and you do jump all over other posters for making bare assertions. You like to use arguments, using "fancy" words which I presume came from a logic book you read one time. How about a real debate?

Now you're leaning on firecenter, and at least he has pointed to financial statements he alleges he knows about. Its the same silly argument from the NHL pre-cap days... "we lose money, we can't pay you xx% of of our revenues, or xx dollars, we will die". Financial statements are an accounting tool, and having to pay the players something that resembles proper compensation is not going to sink even one WHL team, its only going to change how the pie is cut and force some proper financial discipline.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Delgar

So you've backed off your posts from last year, that's a start.

I have read this thread. You haven't made even one post to actually support your argument, you simply go on that attack and pretend you know what you say is true. I know a bit about your posting history, and you do jump all over other posters for making bare assertions. You like to use arguments, using "fancy" words which I presume came from a logic book you read one time. How about a real debate?

Now you're leaning on firecenter, and at least he has pointed to financial statements he alleges he knows about. Its the same silly argument from the NHL pre-cap days... "we lose money, we can't pay you xx% of of our revenues, or xx dollars, we will die". Financial statements are an accounting tool, and having to pay the players something that resembles proper compensation is not going to sink even one WHL team, its only going to change how the pie is cut and force some proper financial discipline.

OK. I will make a post to you. The owners of these junior teams put up hundreds of thousands of dollars, hoping to make a profit. They supply the opportunity for the athletes to get professional training to achieve their goal of playing professional hockey, cover medical expenses, training, living expenses and future college university tuition IF the players choose to utilize it. The players are also paid a monthly stipend to cover small costs outside of the items mentioned above. So if the players want to be paid then they better hire accountants to figure out all of their taxable benefits in 4 provinces and at least 2 US states (for the WHL only). Tax laws in Canada make companies declare any gifts in the amount of $100 as taxable benefits, including Xmas parties and golf tourneys. If the players are receiving dental benefits and health benefits a portion of the amount is also partially paid by the employee.

I say pay the kids, and welcome them to the adult world. And comparing the NHL to any junior league is totally useless, the NHL starts with a $4Billion dollar budget

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

OK. I will make a post to you. The owners of these junior teams put up hundreds of thousands of dollars, hoping to make a profit. They supply the opportunity for the athletes to get professional training to achieve their goal of playing professional hockey, cover medical expenses, training, living expenses and future college university tuition IF the players choose to utilize it. The players are also paid a monthly stipend to cover small costs outside of the items mentioned above. So if the players want to be paid then they better hire accountants to figure out all of their taxable benefits in 4 provinces and at least 2 US states (for the WHL only). Tax laws in Canada make companies declare any gifts in the amount of $100 as taxable benefits, including Xmas parties and golf tourneys. If the players are receiving dental benefits and health benefits a portion of the amount is also partially paid by the employee.

I say pay the kids, and welcome them to the adult world. And comparing the NHL to any junior league is totally useless, the NHL starts with a $4Billion dollar budget

Thank you... dealing with the issues... not the personalities.

[Beatle17]

Originally Posted by Delgar

Thank you... dealing with the issues... not the personalities.

And you have no reply. How much do benefits cost for each player, in a percentage of what they earn? What do the owners pay for travel, meals and hotels on an average road trip? How much are equipment costs, including $300 sticks? What are the staffing costs over and above the player costs?

I notice a lot of people want to talk about fairness utilizing revenue numbers but nobody wants to look at the costs. I had a group of sales guys do budgets for me and not one of them accounted for fixed costs in anything they did. Every one had a management or marketing degree and zero business sense.

[Kjesse]

Originally Posted by Beatle17

And you have no reply. How much do benefits cost for each player, in a percentage of what they earn? What do the owners pay for travel, meals and hotels on an average road trip? How much are equipment costs, including $300 sticks? What are the staffing costs over and above the player costs?

I notice a lot of people want to talk about fairness utilizing revenue numbers but nobody wants to look at the costs. I had a group of sales guys do budgets for me and not one of them accounted for fixed costs in anything they did. Every one had a management or marketing degree and zero business sense.

Don't worry I'll be responding with substance.

[firecenter]

Originally Posted by Delgar

Don't worry I'll be responding with substance.

Then please do. While your at it, my brother plays in the Alberta Football League (teams in RD, GP, Edm...). Should I tell him to stop paying for his own equipment, hire a lawyer, and demand minimum wage?? Trying to keep the logic straight here....

[Vulcan]

Originally Posted by firecenter

Then please do. While your at it, my brother plays in the Alberta Football League (teams in RD, GP, Edm...). Should I tell him to stop paying for his own equipment, hire a lawyer, and demand minimum wage?? Trying to keep the logic straight here....

Are these teams making a lot of money while your brother pays for his own equipment?

The thing is it appears that a lot of Major Junior teams are making a lot of money, some not so much but we, or more importantly the players, don't know how much or what is a reasonable share for the players. It could be that things should remain the same or it could be that the players should get a better deal. To decide just on the teams say so, seems a little one sided and the situation deserves to be looked into.

[Hugh Jahrmes]

Originally Posted by Stanathan

Such as a long-standing blind eye to the abuse of the Temporary Foreign Worker Program :P

#VladdyHockey

[Resolute 14]

Originally Posted by Delgar

Thank you... dealing with the issues... not the personalities.

You are such an F'ing hypocrite. Every single post you have made in this thread has avoided "dealing with the issues". I stand by my original comment. You are incapable of holding a debate.

[Street Pharmacist]

The biggest trouble in this debate is the fact no one, not even the league, knows what all the revenues are.

Some things to consider when looking at this:
-The bantam draft is inarguably illegal. The players have not allowed for it due to collective bargaining like in other leagues because they don't bargain collectively
-currently a lot more disparity exists between contacts handed out by different trans contrary to what many people thought. For example, some teams offer one year of post secondary for every year they play and some offer for right from the start.
-like every other league, the teams act as a cartel by collectively fixing the market, which is dangerous when the other side has no collective representation.
-collective bargaining in this situation would be incredibly messy with many players coming and going, many players not being the age of majority, etc.
-the hockey community is small. There are a lot of people fearful to come forward and join in the process, as they don't want to impact the future of brothers, kids, etc.