[GDT] Blues vs Flames - 7:00 - SNetW

[burn_this_city]

Blues had their number last season when everything was clicking, hard to see the boys winning this one.

[Bandwagon In Flames]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Pat Steinberg ‏@Fan960Steinberg 4m4 minutes ago
#Flames lines today:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland;
Agostino-Backlund-Frolik;
Bouma-Jooris-Colborne;
Bollig-Stajan-Hathaway

Looks like Ferland, with his 12 points in 57 games, are on the top line again.
Always earned, never given.

I just want to emphasize how dumb this post is. All kinds of stupid.

[mrdonkey]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Pat Steinberg ‏@Fan960Steinberg 4m4 minutes ago
#Flames lines today:

Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland;
Agostino-Backlund-Frolik;
Bouma-Jooris-Colborne;
Bollig-Stajan-Hathaway

Looks like Ferland, with his 12 points in 57 games, are on the top line again.
Always earned, never given.

Man, if Johnny ever got hurt this forward lineup would be right up there with some of those Young Guns teams. Maybe even worse.

[saillias]

Yeah, remember when we were "deep at LW?" Our LW depth rivals our RW depth in how garbage it is. You have Johnny and then 4th liners.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by saillias

Yeah, remember when we were "deep at LW?" Our LW depth rivals our RW depth in how garbage it is. You have Johnny and then 4th liners.

That was partly Bouma playing out of his mind, and partly the prospect of Bennett on that side. And probably Ferland as well.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by mrdonkey

Man, if Johnny ever got hurt this forward lineup would be right up there with some of those Young Guns teams. Maybe even worse.

Funny how that happens when you trade Hudler (which had to happen) and to a far lesser extent, Jones.

But if you use your imagination and add a high pick from this year, and maybe a Shinkaruk in the top 6, and one of the many decent looking lower end players in the system in the bottom 6, it looks a lot better.

[Cali Panthers Fan]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Ferland brings a defensive and forechecking element to that line that's sorely needed. Pucks haven't been going in for him, but they'll start going in eventually because the chances are there and he's got the quick, hard shot to capitalize on the chances.

Not that anyone on CP seems to really care, but Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland is a 55 CF% line this season. So while the results aren't there, the process is evidently showing signs. I'm sure that's what Hartley sees too, a line that's controlling a lot of the play but not getting the bounces.

No no, we care. Seriously, I'm pretty sure that most people are interested in the info. I myself like to see trends with certain combinations on a team, like how well do Gaudreau and Monahan do with various right wingers. Who plays best with Backlund and Frolik. What defensive combinations seem to be the most effective, and so forth.

But there's a caveat. I will never replace traditional analysis with only the advanced stats. What the advanced stats do is help to paint a picture, and contribute to the analysis, but there is a serious limit to how much useful information they provide, and so it should never be used to replace other stats for performance, and observing the game situations so as to put the information into context.

As for Ferland, I do notice that as a line they control the play more in the offensive zone, but they don't produce as many goals with Ferland on that line despite the better advanced stats, otherwise you'd see Ferland with more than 12 points. So it shows that Ferland has some value on that line, but not necessarily where it counts. Plus, there needs to be massive amounts of data for any sort of correlational relationship to become valid. However, that's another whole discussion.

And just a word of advice, please don't play martyr just because people disagree with your opinions. It will only detract from your arguments rather than reinforce them.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by GioforPM

That was partly Bouma playing out of his mind, and partly the prospect of Bennett on that side. And probably Ferland as well.

It was Cammalleri, Glencross, Baertschi, Granlund, Byron, Raymond Hudler who is a natural LW. We got rid of all of that depth.

I'm not criticizing management or anything, just pointing out what's happened to that left side.

[Badgers Nose]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Ferland brings a defensive and forechecking element to that line that's sorely needed. Pucks haven't been going in for him, but they'll start going in eventually because the chances are there and he's got the quick, hard shot to capitalize on the chances.

Not that anyone on CP seems to really care, but Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland is a 55 CF% line this season. So while the results aren't there, the process is evidently showing signs. I'm sure that's what Hartley sees too, a line that's controlling a lot of the play but not getting the bounces.

Passes eye test too FWIW

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by heep223

I don't think there are many options right now. They want Frolik with Backlund so they actually have a line that can play against others big boys.

What would you suggest?

Since Joe Colborne has almost 2.5 times as much points as Ferland, and is a bigger body, probably him.

One is on pace for 35 points, the other is on pace for 16 or so.
Colborne clearly deserves it more.

I bet no one on the top line gets any even strength points tonight.

[saillias]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Since Joe Colborne has almost 2.5 times as much points as Ferland, and is a bigger body, probably him.

One is on pace for 35 points, the other is on pace for 16 or so.
Colborne clearly deserves it more.

I bet no one on the top line gets any even strength points tonight.

It's the Blues. You can put McDavid there and have the same outcome

[Erick Estrada]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

I just want to emphasize how dumb this post is. All kinds of stupid.

He has some merit there as Ferland is one of the team's lowest scoring forwards and he's getting time on the first line. In any other city that would be questioned but some fans believe Ferland has untapped offensive talent even if it's not evident night after night. He's actually have a few grade a scoring chances over the past few weeks but his finish is lacking. Personally now that the games don't matter I don't care if Ferland is on the first line as right now there's not a lot of options anyway unless they bring up say Poirier to give him a few games on that line in hopes they can start on something that can be picked up in training camp.

[Fire of the Phoenix]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

Since Joe Colborne has almost 2.5 times as much points as Ferland, and is a bigger body, probably him.

One is on pace for 35 points, the other is on pace for 16 or so.
Colborne clearly deserves it more.

I bet no one on the top line gets any even strength points tonight.

Colborne holds onto the puck too long and doesn't do enough with it to play with a guy like Johnny IMO. Gaudreau needs linemates that will let him hold on to the puck and control the offensive tempo. Colborne and Gaudreau aren't well-suited to play with each other in my view.

[1qqaaz]

Originally Posted by Fire of the Phoenix

Colborne holds onto the puck too long and doesn't do enough with it to play with a guy like Johnny IMO. Gaudreau needs linemates that will let him hold on to the puck and control the offensive tempo. Colborne and Gaudreau aren't well-suited to play with each other in my view.

While I do agree that Colborne can hold onto the puck too long, I don't think they are as bad of a pair as you think.

Gaudreau's talents suit that of a playmaker. Sure, he leads out team in goals, but that's because he often has people like Ferland or Jones on his line. Gaudreau, as we all know, prefers to pass than shoot.

Colborne is tripling Ferland in goals with only about 10% more minutes played. I think Gaudreau needs to be paired with people that can actually finish. He needs to be paired with large and skillful people.

I don't think Colborne is anything more than a third liner, maybe a second liner when he's playing well. He doesn't use his size enough, and he can't bring the puck into the offensive zone. But at least he has has a level of offensive awareness that separates him from Ferland, Bouma, and Jooris.

But frankly, I don't actually mind Ferland being on the top line. He's young, so there's always a chance that a great opportunity can spark some of his apparent upside. A top 3 pick is what matters in the long term. So this is actually a good situation.

[polak]

Frankly neither Ferland or Colborne are going to be top 6 players in this league so arguing who is better suited for the spot is moot. We just have no other options.

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by 1qqaaz

While I do agree that Colborne can hold onto the puck too long, I don't think they are as bad of a pair as you think.

Colborne and Gaudreau have played together for 177:48 and in that span have been on the ice for just four goals. That is a goals for per 60 minutes of 1.35

Gaudreau has a goals for per 60 of 3.00 away from Joe Colborne.

[CroFlames]

Originally Posted by Bandwagon In Flames

I just want to emphasize how dumb this post is. All kinds of stupid.

I don't agree that Ferland should be on the top line. Am I stupid too? I'm no professional coach, and I know that Hartley doesn't have a lot to work with at the moment, but I don't think it's "dumb" to not want Ferly on the top line.

[PeteMoss]

Originally Posted by GranteedEV

Colborne and Gaudreau have played together for 177:48 and in that span have been on the ice for just four goals. That is a goals for per 60 minutes of 1.35

Gaudreau has a goals for per 60 of 3.00 away from Joe Colborne.

Can you give the Corsi stats for Colborne with Monahan/Gaudreau vs Ferland with them?

[GranteedEV]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Can you give the Corsi stats for Colborne with Monahan/Gaudreau vs Ferland with them?

All stats are 5v5.
Line Combo / Icetime together / CF60 / CA60 / CF% / Goals Scored / Goals Per 60 Minutes

Gaudreau-Monahan-Colborne / 69:47 / 61.91 / 59.33 / 51.1% / 0 / 0.00
Gaudreau-Monahan-Ferland / 92:20 / 67.58 / 55.23 / 55.0% / 3 / 1.95

While Ferland isn't producing and the goals haven't especially been there, the shot attempt suppression number is really pretty good, suggests they're keeping the puck out of the D-zone. But you could win your share of 2-1 games playing that way.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by PeteMoss

Can you give the Corsi stats for Colborne with Monahan/Gaudreau vs Ferland with them?

The circumstances are a bit different too. When they tried Colborne it was because they were struggling with Hudler (and Monahan wasn't playing as well as he is now either). Colborne has also lifted his play in the last couple weeks.

Either way it's not a big deal and the role is going to be similar. If you wanted you could throw Hathaway up there as well.