Generational standards of living

[PepsiFree]

When was avocado toast invented?

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I wouldn’t trade places with my parents, grandparents or older. Not even close.

I easily would with my parents, but older than that? Nah

But given the average age of CP, I think we're saying the same thing

[edslunch]

Originally Posted by Jason14h

If you have a job with a personal secretary you can still have a bourbon at 9am

That was the best part of work from home policies

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Sliver

Holy crap, it's - 31 right now. Low of - 34 tonight. Brrrr!

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Weitz

I wouldn’t trade places with my parents, grandparents or older. Not even close.

I would.

My parents had a house in Calgary, cabin in BC and a winter home in Arizona.

[opendoor]

Technological advances will always ensure that by some objective standards, life is always getting better. Medical advances, improved consumer goods, etc. will always make things better in a sense. But in broader terms, when I look at my parents' trajectory, it's pretty clear to me that there's a significant difference between then and now.

They were born in the mid-1950s to working class families and their lives basically went like:

-graduate university at 22 with almost no student debt (despite their families not really being able to contribute much) and walk into solid careers upon graduation

-buy a house at 23 which cost about $210K in today's dollars. Yes, rates were higher, but even at peak rates their mortgage payment would have been about $2K in today's dollars. And yeah, it was a relatively modest house, but today that exact same house is worth well over $1M and would require a mortgage payment of about $5K.

-have kids starting at 25

-upgrade their house a couple of times in their 30s and 50s to their current 5,000 square foot ocean-view house.

-retire in their mid-to-late-50s with very generous pensions

-buy a vacation house in California in their mid-50s and spend 1/3rd of the year there during their (long) retirement.

Is that doable for someone coming out of high school now with similar effort and aptitude? Not remotely. Yeah, if you're a high enough earner, but my parents had normal jobs. Their trick was generally living modestly in their 20s -> 40s and saving money, but housing has become so expensive, that you simply can't pull that off through saving.

[Finger Cookin]

Originally Posted by Locke

From that handy chart it appears that 'Generations' by definition are entirely arbitrary and why are we arguing about it?

It's a message board. Why do we argue about anything? Because we can.

[mikephoen]

Things today might be worse for straight white males in North America than they were in the 60s and 70s, but they're almost for sure better for everyone else.

[CliffFletcher]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Technological advances will always ensure that by some objective standards, life is always getting better. Medical advances, improved consumer goods, etc. will always make things better in a sense. But in broader terms, when I look at my parents' trajectory, it's pretty clear to me that there's a significant difference between then and now.

They were born in the mid-1950s to working class families and their lives basically went like:

-graduate university at 22 with almost no student debt (despite their families not really being able to contribute much) and walk into solid careers upon graduation

-buy a house at 23 which cost about $210K in today's dollars. Yes, rates were higher, but even at peak rates their mortgage payment would have been about $2K in today's dollars. And yeah, it was a relatively modest house, but today that exact same house is worth well over $1M and would require a mortgage payment of about $5K.

-have kids starting at 25

-upgrade their house a couple of times in their 30s and 50s to their current 5,000 square foot ocean-view house.

-retire in their mid-to-late-50s with very generous pensions

-buy a vacation house in California in their mid-50s and spend 1/3rd of the year there during their (long) retirement.

Is that doable for someone coming out of high school now with similar effort and aptitude? Not remotely. Yeah, if you're a high enough earner, but my parents had normal jobs. Their trick was generally living modestly in their 20s -> 40s and saving money, but housing has become so expensive, that you simply can't pull that off through saving.

How many university educated couples today even want to start raising kids at 25?

I agree with your observations. But enjoying 15+ years of child-free adulthood before starting a family vs 5 years is a pretty big green check in the Pro column for younger generations. I’m not anywhere close to financially secure as my parents were at my age, but I had way more fun in my 20s than they did.

[btimbit]

Originally Posted by opendoor

Technological advances will always ensure that by some objective standards, life is always getting better. Medical advances, improved consumer goods, etc. will always make things better in a sense. But in broader terms, when I look at my parents' trajectory, it's pretty clear to me that there's a significant difference between then and now.

They were born in the mid-1950s to working class families and their lives basically went like:

-graduate university at 22 with almost no student debt (despite their families not really being able to contribute much) and walk into solid careers upon graduation

-buy a house at 23 which cost about $210K in today's dollars. Yes, rates were higher, but even at peak rates their mortgage payment would have been about $2K in today's dollars. And yeah, it was a relatively modest house, but today that exact same house is worth well over $1M and would require a mortgage payment of about $5K.

-have kids starting at 25

-upgrade their house a couple of times in their 30s and 50s to their current 5,000 square foot ocean-view house.

-retire in their mid-to-late-50s with very generous pensions

-buy a vacation house in California in their mid-50s and spend 1/3rd of the year there during their (long) retirement.

Is that doable for someone coming out of high school now with similar effort and aptitude? Not remotely. Yeah, if you're a high enough earner, but my parents had normal jobs. Their trick was generally living modestly in their 20s -> 40s and saving money, but housing has become so expensive, that you simply can't pull that off through saving.

People are vastly underestimating how much housing matters. I know my quality of life would be much much worse if I was spending the same amount as my current house mortgage just to rent a one-bedroom apartment instead. Especially if it was just on a single income

Face it, kids these days are screwed

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by mikephoen

Things today might be worse for straight white males in North America than they were in the 60s and 70s, but they're almost for sure better for everyone else.

I think that's a good point. My post above was mostly focused on economics, but the level of tolerance today is definitely an improvement (even if it seems to be backsliding in places). And I also think kids/teenagers today are generally significantly nicer and more thoughtful people than recent prior generations at that age.

The other side of the coin though, is that poor economic conditions and people not seeing an available path to success can throw a lot of that right out the window. A rise in populism (which is driven by increasing economic inequality and decreasing social mobility) isn't going to be good for tolerance and acceptance.

[flamesfever]

I grew up in the 40s and 50s in Toronto. My parents bought a small bungalow in what was then the very north end of Toronto, and what is now the center. They paid $4300. for it in 1943, and sold it in 1953 for $13.500. My Dad's salary went from $50. a week to $100. in the same time span. Usually when you got a good job, in those days, you had it for life. My Dad worked for Simpsons. Decent pensions didn't come along until later. When my Mom started working in a nearby factory, I remember thinking we were rich, when I saw juice showing up in the fridge.

In those days, the doctor paid a visit to your house carrying his little black bag, and I remember my parents trying to scrape up some money to pay him. We all got inoculated in school for small pox and diptheria. We had quite a scare when people started getting polio, until they found the vaccine.

Our street was unpaved, and all the neighbors and kids got together on weekends and played baseball in the middle of the road. Only the odd family on the street owned a car. I would guess we were the middle class at the time, and only the people living in the old money areas like Forest Hill Village and Rosedale seemed to have any significant amount of wealth.

I had some excellent teachers in school and only got the strap twice...once for laughing at a substitute teacher and once for throwing snow balls. All the kids went to the show on Saturday afternoon at a cost of 12 cents. We all booed when the good guys got injured and cheered when the bad guy got shot. As kids we made our own fun by playing cops and robbers, hide and seek, toboganning, etc. We played baseball and hockey and we the kids organized our own teams and kept records. I got a bb gun at the age of 13. My parents refused to buy it for me, so I bought it myself, and had my sister give it to me as a Christmas present.

On Sunday after dinner, the family all huddled around the radio to listen to programs like Lux Theatre, Boston Blacky, Fibber McGee and Molly, and the Shadow. My family were the first on the Block to have a tv, and all the kids came to our house to watch Howdy Doody, the Three Stooges, Red Skelton etc.

Each year in the fall we would get a load of coal to fill up our coal bin in the basement. I remember someone was always called upon to pull the chain that allowed more air into the furnace.

Although we didn't have a lot of money I wouldn't trade my early years for all the advantages that kids have today.

[opendoor]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

How many university educated couples today even want to start raising kids at 25?

I agree with your observations. But enjoying 15+ years of child-free adulthood before starting a family vs 5 years is a pretty big green check in the Pro column for younger generations. I’m not anywhere close to financially secure as my parents were at my age, but I had way more fun in my 20s than they did.

Sure, I certainly didn't want kids in my 20s or even early 30s either. But my parents had the option; they could have had kids later and been even further ahead economically, but they chose to start a family early (which I guess is what you did back then). Whereas now, the millenial/Gen Z version of my parents would likely be having kids much later because they're still paying off student loans and don't have stable housing into their 30s.

And it's not even a boomer vs. younger generation thing. My oldest brother (born in the '70s) got a modest job straight out of high school and bought a house in his early 20s for about 3x his annual salary. Someone with that same job now would be lucky to live in a basement suite without any roommates.

[curves2000]

It's always really tough to compare life in a lot of ways to different generations. You can use examples or put in data for sure. Different generations had different struggles.

Post WW2 Europe was a disaster so that lead to generations who stayed back to have it really rough for a long time. Immigrants who left Europe for Canada/USA those days were able to do exceptionally in a whole host of areas.

Immigrants coming to Canada these days face serious challenges, a lack of upward mobility and a big challenge growth and wealth creation compared to others prior.

Plenty of polls and data is indicating that for a lot of immigrants, newcomers and even "old stock Canadians" moving away from Canada is leading to better lifestyles and a happier overall life.

I do sometimes wonder why SOOOO many people these days struggle with depression, anxiety, mental health issues and more. There are a LOT of people on medication for these issues when that wasn't so much the case. Is it a combo of over diagnoses? Is life really that much harder? Better medication and understanding?

If things are so much better today, then why are so many people so unhappy with things?

Who knows, cool thread to debate though!

[Locke]

Originally Posted by flamesfever

I grew up in the 40s and 50s in Toronto. My parents bought a small bungalow in what was then the very north end of Toronto, and what is now the center. They paid $4300. for it in 1943, and sold it in 1953 for $13.500. My Dad's salary went from $50. a week to $100. in the same time span. Usually when you got a good job, in those days, you had it for life. My Dad worked for Simpsons. Decent pensions didn't come along until later. When my Mom started working in a nearby factory, I remember thinking we were rich, when I saw juice showing up in the fridge.

In those days, the doctor paid a visit to your house carrying his little black bag, and I remember my parents trying to scrape up some money to pay him. We all got inoculated in school for small pox and diptheria. We had quite a scare when people started getting polio, until they found the vaccine.

Our street was unpaved, and all the neighbors and kids got together on weekends and played baseball in the middle of the road. Only the odd family on the street owned a car. I would guess we were the middle class at the time, and only the people living in the old money areas like Forest Hill Village and Rosedale seemed to have any significant amount of wealth.

I had some excellent teachers in school and only got the strap twice...once for laughing at a substitute teacher and once for throwing snow balls. All the kids went to the show on Saturday afternoon at a cost of 12 cents. We all booed when the good guys got injured and cheered when the bad guy got shot. As kids we made our own fun by playing cops and robbers, hide and seek, toboganning, etc. We played baseball and hockey and we the kids organized our own teams and kept records. I got a bb gun at the age of 13. My parents refused to buy it for me, so I bought it myself, and had my sister give it to me as a Christmas present.

On Sunday after dinner, the family all huddled around the radio to listen to programs like Lux Theatre, Boston Blacky, Fibber McGee and Molly, and the Shadow. My family were the first on the Block to have a tv, and all the kids came to our house to watch Howdy Doody, the Three Stooges, Red Skelton etc.

Each year in the fall we would get a load of coal to fill up our coal bin in the basement. I remember someone was always called upon to pull the chain that allowed more air into the furnace.

Although we didn't have a lot of money I wouldn't trade my early years for all the advantages that kids have today.

Did you wear an Onion on your belt? As was the style at the time?

[timun]

Originally Posted by Finger Cookin

Judging by that handy chart, most of the userbase is from 3 or more generations ago. From today.

And this is precisely why so many here have been essentially saying "I don't know what people are talking about, my grandparents had it much tougher." Because their grandparents—and mine too—grew up in the Great Depression or earlier. When people are saying "2-3 generations ago" they mean Baby Boomers or Gen Xers, not grandparents from the Silent Generation or before...

"Real" wages in Canada have been stagnant since about 1976. The average Canadian has faced ever-increasing costs of living, and thus the standard of living has slowly but surely been getting ####tier and ####tier ever since. Nominal wages have been up, and disposable (after-tax) income has been going up, but Millennials and Gen Zers face far higher costs for pretty much everything other than consumer electronics.

Originally Posted by opendoor

Technological advances will always ensure that by some objective standards, life is always getting better. Medical advances, improved consumer goods, etc. will always make things better in a sense. But in broader terms, when I look at my parents' trajectory, it's pretty clear to me that there's a significant difference between then and now.

They were born in the mid-1950s to working class families and their lives basically went like:

-graduate university at 22 with almost no student debt (despite their families not really being able to contribute much) and walk into solid careers upon graduation

-buy a house at 23 which cost about $210K in today's dollars. Yes, rates were higher, but even at peak rates their mortgage payment would have been about $2K in today's dollars. And yeah, it was a relatively modest house, but today that exact same house is worth well over $1M and would require a mortgage payment of about $5K.

-have kids starting at 25

<clipped for brevity>

Is that doable for someone coming out of high school now with similar effort and aptitude? Not remotely. Yeah, if you're a high enough earner, but my parents had normal jobs. Their trick was generally living modestly in their 20s -> 40s and saving money, but housing has become so expensive, that you simply can't pull that off through saving.

Ha, here's mine:

My mother graduated high school and went straight into the workforce with a white-collar clerical job, which paid over double the minimum wage at the time. For reference, there's a 30-year age gap between my mother and me, and a couple years between myself and my sister. My mother, a few years into her career, made $6/hr in 1976; adjusted for inflation that was $24/hr in 2006 dollars. Those 30 years later, with a post-secondary education, I made $18/hr and my sister—with only a secondary education—made $7/hr (minimum wage). Let that sink in: inflation-adjusted for the same age, I made 25% less than my mother did, and my sister—with the exact same high-school-diploma qualifications—made 70% less than she did.

My dad did a year-and-a-half of general studies at the UofC before dropping out. His tuition was about $250/semester. Mine, 27 years later, was ~$2750. He made $3/hr (minimum wage) at the time; I made $5.90/hr (minimum wage). He needed to gross 83 hours' worth of wages to pay for a semester of university; I had to gross 466 hours to do the same.

They got married at ages 23 and 24, and bought a house at ages 27/28 for $172,000 in 2023 dollars. I bought a comparable house at age 29 for $543,000, in 2023 dollars. The value of that comparable house is now over $680,000. The very idea that the average 28-year-old could afford that is laughable.



As compared to the age I'm at now, and adjusted for inflation, I do make quite a bit more money than my parents did. About 65% more than either of them individually did at the same age. But I also have a post-secondary education that neither of them ever completed, and have worked my ass off to progress to this point. They settled down and had kids; I haven't. My mother was a strict nine-to-fiver her entire career; I worked more OT in the first couple years of my career than my mother did in her entire career. My dad worked a lot though (and still works actually, even after "retirement age"), unfortunately with not a lot of monetary gain to show for it. Inflation-adjusted he makes about 13% less than he did in 1990. I'm definitely in far better financial shape than they are now, but frankly in my opinion that's more on them being spendthrifts and extremely poor financial planners than it is on external pressures.

By comparison my sister, still without a post-secondary diploma, makes an inflation-adjusted 30% less than my mother did at the same age. Fortunately her husband makes roughly... triple what she does, and about 70% more than I do. So as a couple all-in-all they're doing okay, haha.

[timun]

Originally Posted by CliffFletcher

One of the reasons it’s difficult to compare generations is that life arcs have changed so much.

My parent’s generation (Silent Generation) grew up poor by our standards. Each in a family of five in a small house with 1 and 1/2 bathrooms and siblings sharing bedrooms. Hand me down clothes. Meat and potatoes meals. Vacation was camping. Jobs by 14 if you wanted to have any spending money. While housing was cheap, one salary from the mill/railroad didn’t pay enough to keep five people in anything close to the material standards we consider middle-class today.

Then out of the house at 18 and working full-time. Married at 20-21. First kid at 23-24, and two more in succession after that. Sure, the economy is growing but if you’re 26 or 28 years old and new in your field, you’re not making much. Those are lean years. The living standards of a typical middle-class family in 1975 would look pretty dire from our vantage.

So it’s not hard to see why older generations look at the childhood and early adulthood of younger generations and regard them as privileged. Boomers and the Silent Generation had much poorer childhoods and youths than Millennials and Gen-Z (as in most things, Gen X are in the middle).

For the last 30 or 40 years, kids and young adults have had way more space, way better clothes, way better food, more stuff. They travel more, dine out more, and have big money lavished on their sports and activities. And the mains reasons are that couples today have children later in life when they’re earning more money, and two working parents provides a huge boost to household income. Especially in the new and unprecedented category of family - two professional parents.

The Silent Generation and Boomers were able to generate more wealth in their working lives than younger generations, and have been able to retire young and well. Younger generations aren’t wrong to envy them paying off mortgages by 50 and retiring to fully-funded pensions at 62.

Tldr: Ages 0-30 have been way better for younger generations than in previous generations. Ages 30-? are shaping up to be worse going forward.

I think you've made a good point here, but have glossed over two things:

1) the standard of living of kids is a direct result of the fiscal capacity of their parents and grandparents, and,

2) the number of kids is shrinking, so per-capita spending on them can quite easily go up.

Between my four grandparents (Silent Generation) they had 11 siblings (who survived into adulthood...): an average of 2.75 per. My parents (Baby Boomers) have seven siblings: an average of 3.5 per. I have one sibling: an average of 1. I have 0 kids; my sister has 1. My nephew has an average 0 siblings.

Younger generations have "had it way better" as children because their parents and grandparents have had much more disposable income to shower on them, and fewer siblings to spread that disposable income across. As adults I made a lot less money than my parents' did until I was into my mid-30s (I have a professional degree, while neither of them completed any post-secondary as explained in the post above). My sister still makes a lot less inflation-adjusted money than our parents did. My nephew faces a far bleaker job market when he's old enough to work.

[FireGilbert]

The elephant in the room is housing. Even with improvements in technology making for an easier and longer life, it's tough to consider yourself better than someone that could easily afford a home, while you have no chance.

I feel for the younger generations, including my daughter, who will inherit and even worse housing crisis combined with AI impacting career opportunities, all while our leaders increasingly ignore these problems.

[Slava]

Originally Posted by timun

And this is precisely why so many here have been essentially saying "I don't know what people are talking about, my grandparents had it much tougher." Because their grandparents—and mine too—grew up in the Great Depression or earlier. When people are saying "2-3 generations ago" they mean Baby Boomers or Gen Xers, not grandparents from the Silent Generation or before...

"Real" wages in Canada have been stagnant since about 1976. The average Canadian has faced ever-increasing costs of living, and thus the standard of living has slowly but surely been getting ####tier and ####tier ever since. Nominal wages have been up, and disposable (after-tax) income has been going up, but Millennials and Gen Zers face far higher costs for pretty much everything other than consumer electronics.






Ha, here's mine:

My mother graduated high school and went straight into the workforce with a white-collar clerical job, which paid over double the minimum wage at the time. For reference, there's a 30-year age gap between my mother and me, and a couple years between myself and my sister. My mother, a few years into her career, made $6/hr in 1976; adjusted for inflation that was $24/hr in 2006 dollars. Those 30 years later, with a post-secondary education, I made $18/hr and my sister—with only a secondary education—made $7/hr (minimum wage). Let that sink in: inflation-adjusted for the same age, I made 25% less than my mother did, and my sister—with the exact same high-school-diploma qualifications—made 70% less than she did.

My dad did a year-and-a-half of general studies at the UofC before dropping out. His tuition was about $250/semester. Mine, 27 years later, was ~$2750. He made $3/hr (minimum wage) at the time; I made $5.90/hr (minimum wage). He needed to gross 83 hours' worth of wages to pay for a semester of university; I had to gross 466 hours to do the same.

They got married at ages 23 and 24, and bought a house at ages 27/28 for $172,000 in 2023 dollars. I bought a comparable house at age 29 for $543,000, in 2023 dollars. The value of that comparable house is now over $680,000. The very idea that the average 28-year-old could afford that is laughable.



As compared to the age I'm at now, and adjusted for inflation, I do make quite a bit more money than my parents did. About 65% more than either of them individually did at the same age. But I also have a post-secondary education that neither of them ever completed, and have worked my ass off to progress to this point. They settled down and had kids; I haven't. My mother was a strict nine-to-fiver her entire career; I worked more OT in the first couple years of my career than my mother did in her entire career. My dad worked a lot though (and still works actually, even after "retirement age"), unfortunately with not a lot of monetary gain to show for it. Inflation-adjusted he makes about 13% less than he did in 1990. I'm definitely in far better financial shape than they are now, but frankly in my opinion that's more on them being spendthrifts and extremely poor financial planners than it is on external pressures.

By comparison my sister, still without a post-secondary diploma, makes an inflation-adjusted 30% less than my mother did at the same age. Fortunately her husband makes roughly... triple what she does, and about 70% more than I do. So as a couple all-in-all they're doing okay, haha.

Originally Posted by timun

Spoiler!

When people say "three generations ago" they mean relative to NOW, not relative to YOU, you goof!

Who’s the goof here? You’re the third generation and it sure looks like you’re getting awfully close to the same timeline I was suggesting as a ballpark. But it’s fine, I’ll just accept your apology and move on.

[topfiverecords]

Originally Posted by PepsiFree

When was avocado toast invented?

The night you were conceived?