Religion & Young Children

[GreenLantern2814]

Originally Posted by The Fonz

I'll preface by saying that neither myself nor my wife are theists.

I have 4 & 5 year old children, and I'm realizing I will need to have a conversation with them about religion/God/Jesus/whoever, sooner than later. They're at that age where some of their friends are going to church, and speaking about God - that kind of thing. My kids are likely wondering wtf these kids are talking about.

I really don't know how to approach this topic. I don't think I can share my honest truth with them... they'd surely repeat it to other kids, as kids do. But I also don't want to tell them a "truth" which I do not believe and quite frankly, think the world would be better off without.

I'm curious to hear how other parents have approached this topic with their young children, when the time was appropriate? What worked well? Anything you wish you'd have done differently?

We’re a species that communicates via imagery. You do it whether or not you’re religious - every time you quote a movie, a meme, a lyric, to make your point, you’re using imagery to convey a message that’s different than the words you’re using.

You’re not theists - you don’t have to be. Every characteristic of God can be applied to the Sun - you wouldn’t deny the Sun is the reason we’re all able to exist on this planet.

You can talk about how people use things like religion to justify their own awful behaviours, and note that people use things like the US constitution the same way. (This might be a little above them)

You can talk about the idea of laying down life for a friend, or for a whole bunch of people you’ve never met. That’s not something anyone should have a problem with. It’s literally the finale of Avengers: Endgame. Iron Man dies so half the universe can live.

Does that mean Jesus literally rose from the grave three days after he died? No.

But everyone gets December 25th off because of the dude, over 2000 years later. That’s kinda godly. Nobody gets to sleep in because of Marcus Aurelius Day.

You can tell them to be wary of anyone who claims to have knowledge of unknowable things - those people usually want your money, or your soul, and you should be careful with both.

You don’t need to be religious or not believe in scientific principles (which, even atheists don’t seem to ‘believe’ in as much as they pretend) to honestly tell your children there’s more to this world, to this life, than just what they can see with their own eyes.

You can tell them that faith, the idea that things will work out if you just do them the right way… is maybe the greatest superpower humans have. The ability to conceptualize things that don’t exist and bring them into being.

Animals can’t do that - not like humans. Chimps using stones as primitive tools is one thing - let’s see them build a wagon. Or a Spitfire.

Miracles - nobody thinks about miracles anymore, because we live on such a hyper advanced civilization, but your perception of miracles might be different if you grew up in a time and place where it wasn’t generally considered automatic that women and children survived childbirth.

I say all this as a non-practicing Catholic who hasn’t been to church in many years.

But I do strongly feel the atheist “it’s all bull####” is as unhelpful and untrue as “it’s in the Bible ergo I’m right.” It’s more true than atheists want it to be, which is why it bothers them so.

And the fundamentalists know they’re more wrong than they’re acting, so it bothers them for the same reasons.

End of the day, be compassionate, listen to what people have to say, and form your own opinions as a human being.

It doesn’t need to be over complicated.

[shogged]

I’ve had some struggles with this topic with my children because they latched on to the concept of heaven long before “god” even came into the picture. We had a major death in the family when they were very young and I know the concept of heaven was a coping mechanism for them. Now that the two have been linked as they’ve grown older, I don’t want to shatter that reality for them and perhaps open up a new source of grief.

In hindsight, I know a better approach would have been to address god early on and separate heaven from that idea and instead focus on the spirituality of the afterlife.

I am confident however that as they mature, this conversation will become much easier and they will have the emotional capacity to manage the reality that death is actually just a hole in the ground lol

[Locke]

Originally Posted by shogged

I’ve had some struggles with this topic with my children because they latched on to the concept of heaven long before “god” even came into the picture. We had a major death in the family when they were very young and I know the concept of heaven was a coping mechanism for them. Now that the two have been linked as they’ve grown older, I don’t want to shatter that reality for them and perhaps open up a new source of grief.

In hindsight, I know a better approach would have been to address god early on and separate heaven from that idea and instead focus on the spirituality of the afterlife.

I am confident however that as they mature, this conversation will become much easier and they will have the emotional capacity to manage the reality that death is actually just a hole in the ground lol

I dont think theres anything inherently wrong or bad in believing in a 'Higher Power' or an afterlife. Whichever one might choose.

I pause when some dude in a robe and a hat tells me that he 'knows the only way though.'

I dont have any problems with people believing in God or a Deity if that comforts them.

But an organization of old white dudes is almost always going to be trouble.

God, Buddha, Mohammad, Vishnu, they're not the problem. We the people are the problem.

As soon as you put 'people' into the equation things get messy.

[powderjunkie]

Originally Posted by Locke

Sir...I like the cut of your Jib. Do you any pamphlets or perhaps a newsletter I could subscribe to?

I've actually directed all of my energy towards a spec script for The Expendables 5. Because I can't imagine taking down an Arch Villain like Santa Claus with anything less than that crew.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by powderjunkie

I've actually directed all of my energy towards a spec script for The Expendables 5. Because I can't imagine taking down an Arch Villain like Santa Claus with anything less than that crew.

I would watch that film.

Get John Goodman and you've got a hit!

[Engine09]

Originally Posted by Textcritic

This is just the sort of cynical view about "religion" that accomplishes absolutely nothing positive, and only serves to marginalise and alienate "religious" people everywhere.

Not everyone who is religious is superstitious; there is MUCH more to it than that. A better approach would be to be more inquisitive and curious than judgmental from the start—your rude and dismissive responses to people are not going to help them see through any harmful beliefs they may actually have, and is more likely to further entrench them.

That does NO ONE any good at all.

I hear what you're saying and agree to an extent in theory, but playing nice sometimes only seems to validate these absurd and harmful beliefs. The inquisitive and curious stage of my examination of religion came to pass a couple decades ago.

The only respect I can pay to the faithfully religious is to be clear and straightforward. If they're offended, ok. A majority of the faithful live their lives without truly examining what they believe and why, no respect for logic and rational thought. It's not anything they care for or want to investigate for themselves, it doesn't even cross their minds.

[Brendone]

Originally Posted by Locke

I would watch that film.

Get John Goodman and you've got a hit!

“Your mistletoe is no match for my TOW missile!”

[Whynotnow]

Originally Posted by Engine09

I hear what you're saying and agree to an extent in theory, but playing nice sometimes only seems to validate these absurd and harmful beliefs. The inquisitive and curious stage of my examination of religion came to pass a couple decades ago.

The only respect I can pay to the faithfully religious is to be clear and straightforward. If they're offended, ok. A majority of the faithful live their lives without truly examining what they believe and why, no respect for logic and rational thought. It's not anything they care for or want to investigate for themselves, it doesn't even cross their minds.

Wow, that seems like quite the superior attitude. Billions and billions of people world wide are worshipers of some form of deity. Many if them are intelligent, incredibly influential people in our world tody. The fact that they have faith in something they can’t see, find comfort and solace in the teachings of that faith, and gravitate toward the community aspect of heir faith should not be so easily dismissed or derided in my opinion.

My dad who died a few years ago was a pretty regular church goer, lived a strong set of morals and in the waning day of his life his faith give him a strength, wisdom and sense of peace that I admire deeply to this day. Spending those last few days when we knew the end was near and observing the gift his faith gave him in that moment still makes me emotional. I could never have imagined trying to tell someone like that they are wrong and have no respect for logical or rational thought.

[Engine09]

That's fine, you can choose to dismiss anything I say because you don't like my tone, that's much easier than actually taking a closer look and examining what you believe and why. Yeah, a lot of people worship a god of some sort, that's not proof, that's not an argument or a valid reason to believe.

I'm thankful that my father is still with us, he is religious, his faith may also give him peace when his final moments come but that doesn't mean any of that is true. Faith is not a virtue, I love my father but that's not one of the reasons I love and respect him.

[FlamesAddiction]

The problem isn't believing in god, an afterlife, being rewarded for good deeds, punished for bad deeds, etc... The core root of what religion and spirituality is, is not inherently bad. It's the structure of organized religion that messes everything up.

The rules organized religions have that govern the way people live were developed by ancient and medieval cultures and just don't reconcile well with modern sensibilities. Some of the rules actually made sense at the time, and others were used as a way to manage the society as a whole, like promoting fertility in an era where there was high infant mortality, rampant disease, low life expectancy, and things like that. Other rules were implemented to promote production of resources that would help the people in various ways. Religion in those days was also a way of promoting economic policies at a time when the state did not look after the needs of the people. Many, if not most of them do not make sense today though, and the institutions have trouble adapting because they actually believe the rules were divine instructions because that is how they were posed by the rulers of the time

Of course many wars have been fought when people use religion as the distinguishing feature that separates populations, but I don't think there would have been fewer wars or less violence without religion. People would have just found other justifications to expand, take resources, spread ideology, and so on. It's what our species does. As the world moves into a more post-religion state, I don't expect few wars. The ideologies will change, but they will still clash.

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Engine09

I hear what you're saying and agree to an extent in theory, but playing nice sometimes only seems to validate these absurd and harmful beliefs. The inquisitive and curious stage of my examination of religion came to pass a couple decades ago.

The only respect I can pay to the faithfully religious is to be clear and straightforward. If they're offended, ok. A majority of the faithful live their lives without truly examining what they believe and why, no respect for logic and rational thought. It's not anything they care for or want to investigate for themselves, it doesn't even cross their minds.

That's an arrogant thing to say. I'm a perfect example of someone who examined what I believed at the time and I know many others who did the same. I also went further to examine and understand other religions. I learned a heck of a lot and gained a better understanding of why people chose to believe what they believe. If it gives someone a purpose and meaning in life, why judge or look down on them?

[Dion]

Originally Posted by Engine09

That's fine, you can choose to dismiss anything I say because you don't like my tone, that's much easier than actually taking a closer look and examining what you believe and why. Yeah, a lot of people worship a god of some sort, that's not proof, that's not an argument or a valid reason to believe.

I'm thankful that my father is still with us, he is religious, his faith may also give him peace when his final moments come but that doesn't mean any of that is true. Faith is not a virtue, I love my father but that's not one of the reasons I love and respect him.

There is no proof of a God because you can't prove a faith.

[DoubleF]

Originally Posted by Engine09

That's fine, you can choose to dismiss anything I say because you don't like my tone, that's much easier than actually taking a closer look and examining what you believe and why. Yeah, a lot of people worship a god of some sort, that's not proof, that's not an argument or a valid reason to believe.

I'm thankful that my father is still with us, he is religious, his faith may also give him peace when his final moments come but that doesn't mean any of that is true. Faith is not a virtue, I love my father but that's not one of the reasons I love and respect him.

One thing I always find interesting is that it doesn't matter which side of the belief you are on, there is symmetry. There are parents on both sides of the debate who seem to IDGAF and many who helicopter parent over the topic. I personally think that how you deal with the conversation/topic is pure statement about yourself vs anything related to the religion topic. It's a vanity issue IMO. Many people who talk about religion whether they're atheist, agnostic, theist or other talk about the topic in a very vain way IMO. It often feels to me like it has a lot less to do with truth and more to prove something to the person making a statement. If you can let your kids enjoy the mythos of Santa, Easter bunny, Halloween etc. in a tolerant way, even though it's fake, why can't be the same for afterlife or God-like entity or lack thereof if you don't believe in it? IMO those that go so far to disregard non truth as a theist or atheist, why isn't the same treatment for a superheros for instance?

I'm not going to get annoyed or demand my kids love Deadpool and joker because it's the superhero and villain (not real) I like the most. I can't seem to see myself as anything but an ####### if I stomp all over my son's love for Spiderman, Pokémon and Minecraft. It's generally not my cup of tea but I'll spend my time engaging him about it, spend my resources acquiring it for him and spending time with him playing/enjoying it.

I'm religious non practicing. I started off being raised very religious and I now view the world through the lens of Deism (ie: God existed but he is not active and more like natural law). This is different than agnostic. Atheists and theists both don't really like my stance. I'm very of the opinion that I made mistakes growing up and my kids deserve a father who stays calm and open minded as I warn but also allow them to make their own mistakes. This so their self growth can be stronger vs relying on me to create a bubble for them to live in. I haven't intentionally wanted to go to church for several decades now.

Even with no desire to go and being very against many aspects of the religion I grew up with, I don't feel my kids benefit if I'm a dick about that topic. I don't stop my kids from going and I go on occasion for family/friend events. I call myself lazy for diplomatic reasons and I'm not against being the one to bless the meal to be polite even though I know prayer doesn't work. I just consider it a cultural leftover superstition for me. I deal with circles of people where when I was growing up, the evolution vs creationist debate raged deeply. I tried understanding both sides and now after all is said and done, I concluded that regardless of the truth, ####### on both sides of the debate suck and I don't like associations with any of them. Anyone who wants to get combative and rude about it are examples of jerks whether their stance is true or false.

My stance is that there's some topics that are none of my business even as a father. But I'd love to live life in a way my kids would be willing to be open with me even if they perceive they have an opposing opinion to me. In reverse, I have my stance, but I don't have to constantly remind everyone I have a stance. But I'll be open about my stance if asked. My stances are beyond basic laziness but basically heresy. There's no benefit to my kids if I cannot STFU on my stance because I'm vain and frustrate, embarrass and potentially alienate my kids from good and positive people for my kids by openly being labeled a heretic.

I know many parents who believe atheism or theism has driven their kids away. I shake my head because there's no point telling them it has nothing to do with the topic and more to do with how they interact with their kids. They cannot tell that they're being close minded and/or tactless. I want my kids to be open minded and kind people. As such I know my kids will have to deal with and interact with people's of all walks of life. I will do my best to protect and guide them, but I'm not going to create a damaging bubble for them any deny them their opportunity to find out for themselves. IMO that's like buying a Lego set for them that they're excited about and denying them the right to build it themselves by building it myself and super gluing it together.