Legal Advice - falsifying invoices

[MolsonInBothHands]

Could you not provide a quote or price schedule instead of a numbered invoice?

Quote the inflated price, but state a discount if paid in less than 30, 60, 90 days, whatever fits for you?

[Bring_Back_Shantz]

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

Could you not provide a quote or price schedule instead of a numbered invoice?

Quote the inflated price, but state a discount if paid in less than 30, 60, 90 days, whatever fits for you?

Well he could.
And if the GC charges based on the non-discounted rate after paying the discounted rate, then he's committing fraud. And if #-3 submits this after the fact with the intent of helping the GC do it, then he's also committing fraud.

Man, for all the complaining people in general do about contractors, I'm honestly surprised how many people here are willing to spitball ways they think someone could steal from a customer and not get caught.

[MolsonInBothHands]

I only suggested it as we has oil field operators contract to us that couldn't seem to survive net 30 when we would be net 90+. We started offering a bit of a discount for quicker payment to mitigate the lapse in cash flow.

The difference is our prime never inflated their day rates artificially. The only cost plus was for wash or lih.

We would also show the discounts on the final invoice.

[GGG]

Originally Posted by Bring_Back_Shantz

Well he could.
And if the GC charges based on the non-discounted rate after paying the discounted rate, then he's committing fraud. And if #-3 submits this after the fact with the intent of helping the GC do it, then he's also committing fraud.

Man, for all the complaining people in general do about contractors, I'm honestly surprised how many people here are willing to spitball ways they think someone could steal from a customer and not get caught.

I think the conversation was around the legality rather than the ethics of said activity.

I think everyone would agree this is ethically wrong.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by Shazam

CRA don't give two ####s if you did or didn't pay your suppliers. They only care that you paid your taxes.

Ahh...theres some wiggling available...but they do Audit Corporate books and they want to know what you've paid your subs so that they can corroborate that your subs paid their taxes.

When the S### sandwich shows up...everyone's gotta take a bite.

[GioforPM]

Originally Posted by #-3

I was actually wondering if anyone knew the specific laws that would be cited as a violation, so I could read them.

I don't really have any intention of submitting two different invoices, but I know there are a lot of games that can be played with fine-print discounting and rebates. I'd like to read a little bit more and understand better where the grey area is, because I was quiet certain what he proposed was a red line.

I do have 100% certainty if you are hiring someone on a cost plus contract bases, if a car dealer promises to show you the invoice... there are these games being played where they get a rebate on a separate statement that they don't show you, or some fine print saying x% discount.... And while I squashed this proposal and just sent my invoice, I do think I will be asked again and need to understand the exact rules better.

well, there's criminal law, which would be s. 380 of the Criminal Code (and the conspracy provisions). And then there's what you'd be sued for which is just fraud and intentional misrepresentation. And it doesn't matter if you give a rebate. The intention is to mislead the customer.

Originally Posted by Mickey76

I’m curious about the actual law myself.I’m assuming the sub contractor can offer a discount for immediate payment or something like that. I don’t think the sub is in any trouble there.

You think wrong. The discount has to be passed on to the customer in a cost plus.

Originally Posted by GGG

I think the sub could charge the contractor what ever rate the contractor agreed to even in retrospect. There would be nothing illegal on the sub side to submit a change order adjusting the rate from $80 an hour to $100 per hour getting it signed off and then billing and being paid at the revised rate. If you inflated hours or material costs that would be fraudulent but charging an increased rate you likely would be okay.

On the contractor side though this might break the terms of the cost plus contract because to protect yourself in a cost + you should have an agreed rate sheet and an agreed material mark up.

If the contracts are well crafted what is being proposed should be fraudulent.

There's no change order which could account for a cheaper price that would not have to be passed on.

Originally Posted by MolsonInBothHands

Could you not provide a quote or price schedule instead of a numbered invoice?

Quote the inflated price, but state a discount if paid in less than 30, 60, 90 days, whatever fits for you?

That discount would still be part of the cost, and therefore the customer has to know about it.

Honestly, this isn't a tough question or one with loopholes. Don't give a false invoice, especially knowing it's being used to mislead a client.

[Locke]

Originally Posted by blankall

Then like Locke said, if GC gets caught he just rolls over on the sub and points the finger at him. He denies the conversation, where he asked the sub to falsify the document, took place. The only actual evidence is the fraudulent invoice from the sub.

You want to hear a funny story?

I had a client who was...'not good with computers' and he'd issue all of his invoices as a Word Document.

Well, you can get software to edit PDFs and the like, thats not rocket science, but if you send your invoices out as plain Word docs...anyone with MS Word can open that document and just...change whatever they like.

"$80/hour? Naww....$120! Just move this here and that there re-calc the GST and off we go!"

I guess if you're drowning in work and dont care about repeat business you can do things like that because you dont care, but its not a good idea.