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Old 11-21-2016, 01:29 PM   #401
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Originally Posted by Parallex View Post
ROTFLMAO!

Oh man... that is the funniest thing I've seen all day. Really? 20 Games?

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ter=&players=0
Yeah 20 wins was a pretty big exaggeration - but the pullpen wasn't great in April and June which didn't help things.

Management probably should have added more bullpen depth but Cecil & Storen just were terrible and those were your two guys who were supposed to be your best pullpen arms - bullpens are just voodoo.

April: 0-8 / 4.10 ERA (20) / 63.2 IP
May: 7-6 / 3.54 ERA (13) / 73.2 IP
June: 1-4 / 5.47 ERA (28) / 72.1 IP
July: 4-4 / 3.42 ERA (14) / 79.0 IP
Aug: 6-4 / 3.38 ERA (6) / 85.1 IP
Sept: 6-6 / 4.80 ERA (25) / 90.0 IP
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Old 11-21-2016, 01:31 PM   #402
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Yeah 20 wins was a pretty big exaggeration - but the pullpen wasn't great in April and June which didn't help things.

Management probably should have added more bullpen depth but Cecil & Storen just were terrible and those were your two guys who were supposed to be your best pullpen arms - bullpens are just voodoo.

April: 0-8 / 4.10 ERA (20) / 63.2 IP
May: 7-6 / 3.54 ERA (13) / 73.2 IP
June: 1-4 / 5.47 ERA (28) / 72.1 IP
July: 4-4 / 3.42 ERA (14) / 79.0 IP
Aug: 6-4 / 3.38 ERA (6) / 85.1 IP
Sept: 6-6 / 4.80 ERA (25) / 90.0 IP
This is the important part.
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Old 11-21-2016, 01:33 PM   #403
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Originally Posted by Parallex View Post
ROTFLMAO!

Oh man... that is the funniest thing I've seen all day. Really? 20 Games?

http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ter=&players=0
Wanted to add that if the bullpen cost them 20 games, they would have had 109 wins for the season, beating the cubs by 6 wins. As far as I can tell, no team has had 109 wins in at least 10 years. It's such ignorant hyperbole that anyone capable of saying that has very little idea about the game of baseball... or, you know, basic research.

Adding to that, TAO is whining about losing out on the mighty Josh Reddick. Who is not a reliever. Can't even stay consistent on what he's whining about. What's wrong with the team that reached the second round of the playoffs?. EVERYTHING! LOL.
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Old 11-21-2016, 01:47 PM   #404
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Not sure how that link disproves his thoughts.
Because the team with the best bullpen performance had all of 4 more wins above replacement on the season so claiming the bullpen "cost" them 20 games in the first three months is silly.

Was it the bullpen that "cost" them those games... or was it the offense not scoring more?, or the starting pitching not doing well enough that day, or the position players not fielding well enough on that day? I'm not going to claim the Jays pen was the best, but claiming they cost them 20 is quite possibly the silliest thing (or at least the most erroneous thing) Alpine has ever said.
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Old 11-21-2016, 01:48 PM   #405
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Originally Posted by SuperMatt18 View Post
Yeah 20 wins was a pretty big exaggeration - but the pullpen wasn't great in April and June which didn't help things.

Management probably should have added more bullpen depth but Cecil & Storen just were terrible and those were your two guys who were supposed to be your best pullpen arms - bullpens are just voodoo.

April: 0-8 / 4.10 ERA (20) / 63.2 IP
May: 7-6 / 3.54 ERA (13) / 73.2 IP
June: 1-4 / 5.47 ERA (28) / 72.1 IP
July: 4-4 / 3.42 ERA (14) / 79.0 IP
Aug: 6-4 / 3.38 ERA (6) / 85.1 IP
Sept: 6-6 / 4.80 ERA (25) / 90.0 IP
Agreed. The Jays front office did address the bullpen last offseason and there weren't really alot of indicators out there that Storen was going to be that bad and certainly not that Cecil would struggle that much. If those two guys were even average, the bullpen is probably fine.

But no question they need to imrpove it but I have faith they will. Not even a month into the off season yet.
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Old 11-21-2016, 01:48 PM   #406
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Brett Cecil bolts Blue Jays for 4-year deal with Cardinals

The St. Louis Cardinals signed reliever Brett Cecil to a four-year, $30.5-million US contract on Monday, filling a massive void in their bullpen following injuries to Zach Duke and Tyler Lyons.

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/baseball/ml...nals-1.3860928
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Old 11-21-2016, 01:58 PM   #407
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Originally Posted by SuperMatt18 View Post
Yeah 20 wins was a pretty big exaggeration - but the pullpen wasn't great in April and June which didn't help things.

Management probably should have added more bullpen depth but Cecil & Storen just were terrible and those were your two guys who were supposed to be your best pullpen arms - bullpens are just voodoo.

April: 0-8 / 4.10 ERA (20) / 63.2 IP
May: 7-6 / 3.54 ERA (13) / 73.2 IP
June: 1-4 / 5.47 ERA (28) / 72.1 IP
July: 4-4 / 3.42 ERA (14) / 79.0 IP
Aug: 6-4 / 3.38 ERA (6) / 85.1 IP
Sept: 6-6 / 4.80 ERA (25) / 90.0 IP
Quote:
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This is the important part.
Except didn't we knowingly take a chance on Storen because he was cheap and declining and we were hoping he'd find his way again? And if that's true then therefor couldn't you say that we kind of got what we paid for rather than got bad luck?
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Old 11-21-2016, 02:06 PM   #408
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Except didn't we knowingly take a chance on Storen because he was cheap and declining and we were hoping he'd find his way again?
... No, we didn't. Drew Storen the year before he joined the Jays had 10.96 K/9 & 2.62 BB/9 (very good numbers) and he was slated to make 8.375M (so not cheap).
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Old 11-21-2016, 02:06 PM   #409
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Except didn't we knowingly take a chance on Storen because he was cheap and declining and we were hoping he'd find his way again? And if that's true then therefor couldn't you say that we kind of got what we paid for rather than got bad luck?
He had a really bad second half in 2015; but was pretty solid in the first half.

Could be somewhat of a chance, but that was also after Papelbon came and took over. Storen was certainly mad about that which, one could argue, affected his second half performance.

He actually pitched pretty well in Seattle after the trade.

I wouldn't say he was washed up when we traded for him.

You go into the season with Osuna at closer, Storen in 8, Cecil in 7. Without hindsight, that looked pretty solid.
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Old 11-21-2016, 02:06 PM   #410
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http://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/116...medium=twitter

Jays offer 80 million over 4 years, rejected by EE.
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Old 11-21-2016, 02:14 PM   #411
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http://www.thescore.com/mlb/news/116...medium=twitter

Jays offer 80 million over 4 years, rejected by EE.
Is that old news? Feels like old news.

Regardless, that offer is perfectly fair and should probably be their final offer (Frankly, I'd rather they offer that to Fowler).
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Old 11-21-2016, 02:41 PM   #412
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Is that old news? Feels like old news.

Regardless, that offer is perfectly fair and should probably be their final offer (Frankly, I'd rather they offer that to Fowler).
That was reported on today.

Giving that to Fowler over Encarnacion is kind of laughable.
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Old 11-21-2016, 05:46 PM   #413
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Originally Posted by calculoso View Post
not sure how that link disproves his thoughts.


Full season, the jays bullpen lost 32 games, second most in the majors.

1st half, the jays bullpen lost 20 games, also second most in the majors.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ers=0&sort=3,a


the 'pen is definitely an area they could improve upon.
nm

Last edited by TheAlpineOracle; 11-21-2016 at 06:06 PM.
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Old 11-21-2016, 06:05 PM   #414
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Quote:
Originally Posted by calculoso View Post
Not sure how that link disproves his thoughts.


Full season, the Jays bullpen lost 32 games, second most in the Majors.

1st half, the Jays bullpen lost 20 games, also second most in the Majors.
http://www.fangraphs.com/leaders.asp...ers=0&sort=3,a


The 'pen is definitely an area they could improve upon.
It doesn't at all. The Jays could serve up a turd sandwich and parallex would eat it up and tells us how great it was.

The fact of the matter is the Jaya bullpen cost them 20 games before it was addressed, and even 12 more after it was. Both Boston and New York will be improved teams this year to start the season. Jays will not be able to overcome
A third straight bullpen gong show this year. It needs to be addressed now.
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Old 11-21-2016, 08:10 PM   #415
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I know it doesn't fit your narrative TAO but not all bullpen losses can just be chalked up to them blowing it and being terrible. What about instances of poor late game hitting? Poor defense? Extra inning games? Did they have some problems? Of course, but there is more to blame that the bullpen. And I don't mean your typical blame Rogers bull####
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:27 PM   #416
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I know it doesn't fit your narrative TAO but not all bullpen losses can just be chalked up to them blowing it and being terrible. What about instances of poor late game hitting? Poor defense? Extra inning games? Did they have some problems? Of course, but there is more to blame that the bullpen. And I don't mean your typical blame Rogers bull####
When you have a lead in the 7, 8, or 9 ninth inning quite a bit and you blow that to the point you have 20 losses before the Allstar break, the blame is on the bullpen. Sure the Jays weren't hitting great, but they still had leads that our bullpen pissed away. The fact that no lead was safe for the Jays also likely contributed to the offence trying to do a little too much in my opinion.

Starting a third consecutive year with a #### show in the pen is ludicrous. It needs to be addressed. I'm not a Cecil fan, but given the lack of quality LH arms available out there and the fact the Jays dont have a single MLB caliber one on their roster, I think the Jays should have been all in on that.

People can sit here and complain about how much money and term they get all they want, but that's what it costs. If they Jays aren't willing to offer competitive deals to players, than what is the point of having the roster they have?

Last edited by TheAlpineOracle; 11-21-2016 at 10:48 PM.
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:41 PM   #417
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That was reported on today.

Giving that to Fowler over Encarnacion is kind of laughable.
Disagree. EE has a significant edge in power but in all other regards Fowler is better. Factor in that EE is several years older and thus can be expected to suffer more rapid age related decline. I love me the dingers... I just like Fowler's complete package on a expensive ticket like that more. I woudn't be sad of we extended EE (bird in the hand and all that) I just think the OF is the greater priority.
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:41 PM   #418
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The Jays bullpen last year shouldn't have been a #### show on paper. Easy to blame management now with the use of hindsight.

Osuna had an amazing 2015 and was the closer
Cecil was one of the best relievers in baseball for most of 2015
Storen had a tough 2nd half in 2015 but had a solid track record going back 5 or 6 years

On paper that should have been a solid back end of the bullpen

2 of those guys are primarily to blame for most of those blown games in early 2016 and I don't think many people would have predicted that.

Who would have guessed that rule 5 draftee Biagini would be a better bullpen arm than Storen or Cecil for the first few months? Nobody really even mentioned him going into last season.
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:51 PM   #419
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The Jays bullpen last year shouldn't have been a #### show on paper. Easy to blame management now with the use of hindsight.

Osuna had an amazing 2015 and was the closer
Cecil was one of the best relievers in baseball for most of 2015
Storen had a tough 2nd half in 2015 but had a solid track record going back 5 or 6 years

On paper that should have been a solid back end of the bullpen

2 of those guys are primarily to blame for most of those blown games in early 2016 and I don't think many people would have predicted that.

Who would have guessed that rule 5 draftee Biagini would be a better bullpen arm than Storen or Cecil for the first few months? Nobody really even mentioned him going into last season.
Storen had been on the decline. So much so, Washington ate the difference between his and Revere's salary. I don't think anyone could Have predicted he would be as bad as he was, but he most knew that he wasn't the Storen of old.
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Old 11-21-2016, 10:53 PM   #420
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Not addressing the bullpen for the second straight year last year cost them close to 20 games in the first 3 months of the season. There's no way with the way the Yankees and Red Sox are improving that they can continue to piss games away until they decide in July to fix the problem. They don't have a single major league left-handed pitcher in their entire bullpen. Moving Liriano to fill that role would be a very poor decision in my mind. He's probably a 14-15 game winner on the Jays if he picks up where he left off. Jays are going to have to continue to rely on their great starting 5 even more as the offence continues to erode.

Are you suggesting we should be fine starting our season with Kevin Pillar, Melvin Upton, Dalton Pompey, and Justin Smoak in our outfield and 1st base positions? Not saying it's going to be that way just yet, but i'm not willing to give that lineup the benefit of the doubt as you are.

If not free agents, how do you suggest they fill these holes? The cupboards are bare. They aren't exactly flush with prospects to deal and I highly doubt they are willing to give up Guerrero or Gurriel which is what most teams would be looking for. At least I hope they are not. I haven't been as excited for a Jays prospect as much as I am with Guerrero since Carlos Delgado.
I've already said that I hope they upgrade 1st base, add two decent corner outfielders and that they likely need to improve the bullpen as well.

My point though stands, you are painful to read in this thread, same as last years off season thread.

All you do is piss and moan and villainize Rogers over and over again.

Every time they're rumored to be in on someone
Every time they're rumored to not be in on someone.
Every time they sign someone.
Ever time they don't sign someone.

Over and over again. I went back and read through last years off season thread and it was the same then, yet despite all the crappy moves the Evil Rogers did or didn't allow their puppet management team to do the Jays ended up being one of the final 4 teams in baseball.

Do you what you gotta do I guess, but you would think after this last season you'd do less complaining and take a more wait and see approach to how they build this team, and what the final result will be.
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